M20 Solution?

[Richardf]

Just found this. Looks interesting.

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-new ... 735705.amp

Personally I think a better answer would be to create a second route to the Kent ports by fully upgrading the A2 corridor to HQDC/expressway or even motorway. The route needs built in redundancy for when there are problems.

[Bertiebus]

Drawing lines on maps is easy*, it's all the rest of it that's the hard part.

* More enlighted elements of the railway enthusiast fraternity call such people 'crayonista'

[Chris5156]

Just found this. Looks interesting.

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-new ... 735705.amp

"Ashford Council have told me they have the proposal on file which sounds encouraging" - I think it just means they're not interested but they don't want to be rude about it.

His idea is basically to build a second D3M motorway between junctions 8 and 9. That's an absolute non-starter, surely - there are so many ways to solve the lorry parking problem more cheaply and without the same level of disruption and acrimony from nearby residents.

Fundamentally what is needed is a lorry park to park lorries on, not a road to park lorries on. The only reason lorries are being parked on a road now is that there isn't a lorry park that can accommodate them.

[Bryn666]

Just found this. Looks interesting.

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-new ... 735705.amp

"Ashford Council have told me they have the proposal on file which sounds encouraging" - I think it just means they're not interested but they don't want to be rude about it.

His idea is basically to build a second D3M motorway between junctions 8 and 9. That's an absolute non-starter, surely - there are so many ways to solve the lorry parking problem more cheaply and without the same level of disruption and acrimony from nearby residents.

Fundamentally what is needed is a lorry park to park lorries on, not a road to park lorries on. The only reason lorries are being parked on a road now is that there isn't a lorry park that can accommodate them.

This will be the same county that bemoans any M20 disruption but also opposes any plans to provide off-motorway lorry parking.

Bunch of Kents.

[RichardA35]

Far better to have had an actual lorry park

[Brenley Corner]

Bunch of Kents.

Thanks very much.

We’re not all the same.

I’d love there to be a lorry park. We have been beset by traffic chaos every time there is any kind of disruption in the channel for weather, industrial disputes etc etc . The county comes to a stop; back during the last big bout of Operation Stack before Brexit even began it was taking 3 hours to get home 30 miles. We definitely need a solution - and it is a lorry park not this home-made solution. However like everywhere we are beset by NIMBYs especially those who don’t have to travel the county commuting and doing business etc etc.

Be wary of anything in KentLive. It’s just a click bait local “news” site with no journalistic values.

[Bryn666]

Bunch of Kents.

Thanks very much.

We’re not all the same.

I’d love there to be a lorry park. We have been beset by traffic chaos every time there is any kind of disruption in the channel for weather, industrial disputes etc etc . The county comes to a stop; back during the last big bout of Operation Stack before Brexit even began it was taking 3 hours to get home 30 miles. We definitely need a solution - and it is a lorry park not this home-made solution. However like everywhere we are beset by NIMBYs especially those who don’t have to travel the county commuting and doing business etc etc.

Be wary of anything in KentLive. It’s just a click bait local “news” site with no journalistic values.

The same problems would occur if the main port was up here. It's just I can't make the same pun. Bunch of Lankers doesn't work as well...

[Brenley Corner]

It's just I can't make the same pun. Bunch of Lankers doesn't work as well...

It comes close.......

[thatapanydude]

Can't fathom why the A2 isn't at least dual carriageway from Dover though? That would relieve the M20 a bit.

[KeithW]

Can't fathom why the A2 isn't at least dual carriageway from Dover though? That would relieve the M20 a bit.

The main problem is actually getting out of Dover onto the A2. Jubilee Way is S3 configured as 2 lanes climbing and one descending and upgrading that to D2 would essentially mean rebuilding it. It is also often closed by accidents as there is no barrier between the northbound and southbound lanes on the bridge section. So where does the traffic go while this is happening even if you can find the money ?

You dont want to send HGV's up Castle Hill Road, through the centre on London Road or on the A260 Canterbury Road. from the A20 at Folkestone.

[Bryn666]

You can just build a bridge alongside the existing one if you were that desperate to dual Jubilee Way...

[KeithW]

You can just build a bridge alongside the existing one if you were that desperate to dual Jubilee Way...

There isn't exactly a lot of free space to put it on as it goes through a gap between sections of the white cliffs. At a minimum you would need some major excavations on the cliffs and that would be a problem as the no roads lobbyists and environmental campaigners would protest in droves. The cliffs to the west of the existing road are too high while to the east a good portion of the land is owned by the National Trust and is inalienable which means compulsory purchase would require parliamentary approval.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.12751 ... authuser=0

A terrain map shows the problem quite well Jubilee Way is basically threading the gap between Fox Hill Down and Dover Castle. Dover Castle is a protected historic monument while the Langdon Cliffs area of Fox Hill down is a Site of Special Scientific Interest , designated Area of Natural Beauty and inalienable land, other than that there is no problem at all

[MotorwayPlannerM21]

You'd only need a very little bit of excavation surely. Namely, this small mound within the treeline. You might need to cut into the adjacent bit of land, but you definitely wouldn't need to go beyond the edge of the escape lane. There might be more required further north but that looks to be quite easy as well.

[c2R]

It would be better to have an actual lorrypark. Operation stack/brock isn't the way to do it, because there are no amenities along the motorway, meaning that you need to have loads of portable toilets delivered to position them every half mile or so, as well as presumably food vans delivering sandwiches etc. I suspect it's also a nightmare for disabled drivers, with no option of checking into a hotel if you don't fancy sleeping in the cab. A proper lorry/van park can have all these facilities and more, to at least make the queueing more pleasant than converting the motorway....

[KeithW]

You'd only need a very little bit of excavation surely. Namely, this small mound within the treeline. You might need to cut into the adjacent bit of land, but you definitely wouldn't need to go beyond the edge of the escape lane. There might be more required further north but that looks to be quite easy as well.

All that is true if you are rebuilding the bridge but not if you are building a new bridge alongside it which was what was being suggested. You might get away with a 2 lane bridge immediately to the east but then you are looking at disrupting traffic using the dock entrance and probably rebuilding the customs building. Were I asked to look at fixing this I would be looking into the possibility of bring in a pre fabricated steel structure and driving piles into the reclaimed land to support it. None of this would be cheap or easy.

If you absolutely had to have a new road the least disruptive solution would probably be an upgrade of the A260 between the A20 at Hawkinge and the A2 at Barham with bypasses for Densole and Denton. You could send heavy traffic along that route and leave the Jubilee Way to cars and LGV's. That way you are joining the A2 at a point where it is already D2

[MotorwayPlannerM21]

You'd only need a very little bit of excavation surely. Namely, this small mound within the treeline. You might need to cut into the adjacent bit of land, but you definitely wouldn't need to go beyond the edge of the escape lane. There might be more required further north but that looks to be quite easy as well.

All that is true if you are rebuilding the bridge but not if you are building a new bridge alongside it which was what was being suggested. You might get away with a 2 lane bridge immediately to the east but then you are looking at disrupting traffic using the dock entrance and probably rebuilding the customs building. Were I asked to look at fixing this I would be looking into the possibility of bring in a pre fabricated steel structure and driving piles into the reclaimed land to support it. None of this would be cheap or easy.

If you absolutely had to have a new road the least disruptive solution would probably be an upgrade of the A260 between the A20 at Hawkinge and the A2 at Barham with bypasses for Densole and Denton. You could send heavy traffic along that route and leave the Jubilee Way to cars and LGV's. That way you are joining the A2 at a point where it is already D2

I was thinking of something like this myself. The existing bridge is already three lanes wide so the new bridge would only need to be wide enough for one lane plus space to put in a central reservation. It would of course cause disruption during construction and to be honest I'm not really advocating for widening it anyway. I agree that the A260 should be upgraded and treated as an 'outer bypass' of sorts for Dover. I'd have it D2 but not necessarily grade-separated.

[Chris5156]

You can just build a bridge alongside the existing one if you were that desperate to dual Jubilee Way...

There isn't exactly a lot of free space to put it on as it goes through a gap between sections of the white cliffs. At a minimum you would need some major excavations on the cliffs and that would be a problem as the no roads lobbyists and environmental campaigners would protest in droves. The cliffs to the west of the existing road are too high while to the east a good portion of the land is owned by the National Trust and is inalienable which means compulsory purchase would require parliamentary approval.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.12751 ... authuser=0

It can't be that difficult - the "gap" it goes through is a man-made cutting for the A2 to pass through, so would have been cut in the mid-70s. On an old map like the OS six inch you can see the clifftop was uninterrupted before the A2 was built.

Given that the existing roadway is 12m wide (3x4m lanes) and dualling would require perhaps two new lanes, to create a dual carriageway with two lanes downhill and three up, you'd be looking at excavating at most an additional 12m width to the cutting - probably less. The boundary of Dover Castle is about 200m to the west so you should be able to nibble away that much additional width on the west side without difficulty; less if a technique like soil nailing or retained cut were used to create a steeper cutting slope than is there now.

[Stevie D]

If widening the road through the cliffs is not plausible, how about double-decking it? Tying it in at the roundabout would involve a fair amount of rebuilding, and could see some loss of Port Authority land, but could potentially provide an alternative.

[roadtester]

I'm not sure the flyover is a particular bottleneck - it never seems under much pressure when I head that way.

I suspect it might be possible to get away with upgrading/dualling the rest of the A2 and leaving the final approach to the docks themselves as is.

Also, you perhaps want something that will constrict traffic a bit/into a single file going towards the docks on the last section if you don't want to overload the roundabout at the bottom of the flyover.

(the views of a layman rather than a traffic engineer - prepared to have the no doubt obvious flaws in my argument pointed out to me!)

[KeithW]

It can't be that difficult - the "gap" it goes through is a man-made cutting for the A2 to pass through, so would have been cut in the mid-70s. On an old map like the OS six inch you can see the clifftop was uninterrupted before the A2 was built.

Given that the existing roadway is 12m wide (3x4m lanes) and dualling would require perhaps two new lanes, to create a dual carriageway with two lanes downhill and three up, you'd be looking at excavating at most an additional 12m width to the cutting - probably less. The boundary of Dover Castle is about 200m to the west so you should be able to nibble away that much additional width on the west side without difficulty; less if a technique like soil nailing or retained cut were used to create a steeper cutting slope than is there now.

Technically its not difficult but politically we are in a completely different place compared to the 1970's. They ripped out most of the town centre and demolished listed buildings when the A66 was built through Middlesbrough and mass demolition in Newcastle for the central motorway. You would not get away with that now. I suspect widening the A2 would be opposed vigorously by both the NT and English Heritage.

I think 3 lanes up is overkill, the road is never that busy anyway. There is a good view from Upper Road on GSV here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.13345 ... authuser=0

It is very clear on the Google Earth historical imagery from 1960 that while there was a narrow ridge at the cliff behind it the road runs through an existing valley that was widened.