BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Ruperts Trooper
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Herned wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:19 I believe the obsession with building 'detached' houses six inches away from the neighbours with gardens the size of a bath towel that is the problem. I have often wondered why we don't build decent-sized apartments in this country - something like 3 bed flats in 4 or 5 story blocks with parking underneath fits in a lot more living space into a given site, and the density makes it easier to serve by public transport, more people nearby for local shops etc.
Many people aspire to own a detached house with a garden - few aspire to own a flat with no garden - it's supply and demand.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

Post by Herned »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:29 Many people aspire to own a detached house with a garden - few aspire to own a flat with no garden - it's supply and demand.
Yes of course, but I think it might be partly a chicken and egg situation - there are hardly any flats of that kind available, so people don't have that choice. I bet there would be some demand if the right 'product' were available
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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WHBM wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 16:06 Schools are a good idea where you have children, but these sort of developments do not suit families with children. So few children so the education department, who seem to know about these things better, won't get involved.
Ummm... I'll give an example of two developments near me... each ~150 homes (and nothing else). As a Governor of a (very full) primary school adjacent to one of the developments, I helped to coordinate our reply to the Planning Apps, pointing out that ~300 2- 3- 4- and 5-bedroomed homes in the vicinity would imply a need for at least 100 primary and 100 secondary school places, and that a Section 106 provision should be included to expand the schools.

Hampshire County Council rejected our concerns, pointing out that there are plenty of spare places in the New Forest area (we're in the North East of the County!) and so no s106 provision was necessary... The plans were thus approved. And the following day, HCC requested that the school consider where it could build a two story, four classroom extension...
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Herned wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:19 I believe the obsession with building 'detached' houses six inches away from the neighbours with gardens the size of a bath towel that is the problem. I have often wondered why we don't build decent-sized apartments in this country - something like 3 bed flats in 4 or 5 story blocks with parking underneath fits in a lot more living space into a given site, and the density makes it easier to serve by public transport, more people nearby for local shops etc.
Actually detached houses at that spacing dont really take much more land than a semi, the reason the developers like them is that they make more profit. They can squeeze almost as many properties on the same plot of land and charge a premium price. This is made worse by the fact that they have also reduced garden sizes.

In the part of the NE where I live population density is low compared with southern England and building land relatively cheap but the new houses being built are rabbit hutches. The contrast is clear here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51955 ... authuser=0

To the NE are the older detached houses built in the 1970's. They are well spaced , have decent sized gardens and are not only set back from the road but screened by trees so they have proper family gardens.

To the SW are the new houses being erected, they are detached but are around 6" apart, the gardens are tiny and some of the houses back directly onto the main road. Yet the builders are asking and getting higher price for them than you would pay for the older properties. They have one last to trick to play. In the first phase of development they leave spaces and buyers assume this is the final layout. What happens is these are infilled in phase II

Old houses
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51989 ... authuser=0

New houses
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.51983 ... authuser=0

Far better value are the semis close by, back in the 1970's I bought this one.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.53298 ... authuser=0

There are also 2 bedroom flats with parking which are quite good value but rather let down by not having a lift but most of the buyers are young couples so less of a problem than you might think. They are starter homes and the average residence is under 5 years.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-fo ... 52382.html

The best value of the lot are the newbuild terraces in Ormesby where you can buy a 5 bedroom house with a drive and garage for £80,000
Last edited by KeithW on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Herned wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:48
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:29 Many people aspire to own a detached house with a garden - few aspire to own a flat with no garden - it's supply and demand.
Yes of course, but I think it might be partly a chicken and egg situation - there are hardly any flats of that kind available, so people don't have that choice. I bet there would be some demand if the right 'product' were available
Multi-storey flats have stairs and/or lifts to get to ground level - many people would find that a negative - there may be demand among the young and trendy but they generally can't afford to buy - and they don't stay young and trendy, they often start families and then get old.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Herned wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:48
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 09:29 Many people aspire to own a detached house with a garden - few aspire to own a flat with no garden - it's supply and demand.
Yes of course, but I think it might be partly a chicken and egg situation - there are hardly any flats of that kind available, so people don't have that choice. I bet there would be some demand if the right 'product' were available
I think this is partly correct, at least. In places with a greater tradition of living in apartments - i.e. where people actively choose this rather than it just being Hobson's choice - there is more choice in kind of apartment, and the apartments available are of higher general quality. Sure, there are some people who specifically value having a garden or some other feature of a detached house on its own plot that is incompatible with most flats however luxurious they are. But equally, there are some people who actively don't want a garden or the need to maintain the infrastructure of their dwelling, and who actively want to live in a central location. These people are traditionally less well catered for in the UK than in some other places, so they go for the next best alternative. And that is often a detached house (perhaps a modern one with minimal garden) rather than a flat, because the available flats are too far from what they're looking for.

There is also a general problem with build quality in the UK - perhaps not now with new builds, but until sufficiently recently that most properties available are problematic. Noise for example - it is possible to insulate against the normal noise of daily life from the flat next door - things like music played at a normal volume, babies crying, dogs barking, washing machines on spin etc. - but IME at least, this is rarely the reality. Flats in many developments in the UK seem to be designed to the lowest common denominator by entities that know that the people who will live there will have little choice. The exception is the really high end kind of development you see along the waterfront in London, but these are out of reach price-wise to more or less everyone.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

Post by rhyds »

I agree with FW, the problem that apartments and flats in the UK have is due to the fact that the big building boom for them was as public/council housing in the 50s/60s/70s, and the problems with those buildings are well known (around noise, energy efficiency and general safety). This reflects badly on all homes of this type, if they suffer from these issues or not.

The other issue with flats is that you have to deal with management companies that are as a rule totally useless. My brother has a first floor flat in Cardiff and the management firm charge an absolute packet while refusing to repair items such as the lift, which means his disabled friend has a rather difficult time coming to visit.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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There certainly are some valid reasons for preferring detached - e.g. avoiding the potential for party wall disputes or having your life wrecked by noisy neighbours, and less risk of a house being let down by a neglected neighbour - but some people also prefer it for social/snobbish reasons, which is a hard prejudice to shift.

I live in a fairly roomy four-bedroomed house, but having had the first intimations of possible future difficulties with mobility thanks to a couple of health conditions, I'd be tempted to downsize to a flat. On the other hand, the disadvantages would be quite big:

1) not enough space for all my stuff

2) probably need multiple parking spaces

3) need off-street parking/EV charging

4) don't like the complication of leasehold/worrying about maintenance of common parts etc.

5) need a ground floor flat in case stairs become difficult in future

6) any move might soak up tens of thousands of pounds, esp. with stamp duty.

What I'd really like is a small but still detached house/bungalow with as few as one or two bedrooms, with plenty of car space but only a small garden to keep up - just enough space to allow a sit outside to read the paper with a cup of tea on a sunny day.

A local development did include two or three houses of this type which I found tempting, and two-bed detached bungalows are common in Lincolnshire where everything is much cheaper and there is more space, but this sort of property seems to be very much out of the focus of current planning/development.

On the other hand, it's exactly the sort of house that lots of mature single people or empty nesters would probably find ideal.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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FosseWay wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:07
I think this is partly correct, at least. In places with a greater tradition of living in apartments - i.e. where people actively choose this rather than it just being Hobson's choice - there is more choice in kind of apartment, and the apartments available are of higher general quality. Sure, there are some people who specifically value having a garden or some other feature of a detached house on its own plot that is incompatible with most flats however luxurious they are. But equally, there are some people who actively don't want a garden or the need to maintain the infrastructure of their dwelling, and who actively want to live in a central location. These people are traditionally less well catered for in the UK than in some other places, so they go for the next best alternative. And that is often a detached house (perhaps a modern one with minimal garden) rather than a flat, because the available flats are too far from what they're looking for.

There is also a general problem with build quality in the UK - perhaps not now with new builds, but until sufficiently recently that most properties available are problematic. Noise for example - it is possible to insulate against the normal noise of daily life from the flat next door - things like music played at a normal volume, babies crying, dogs barking, washing machines on spin etc. - but IME at least, this is rarely the reality. Flats in many developments in the UK seem to be designed to the lowest common denominator by entities that know that the people who will live there will have little choice. The exception is the really high end kind of development you see along the waterfront in London, but these are out of reach price-wise to more or less everyone.
It is perfectly true that flats do suit many people. When my dad died we kids had moved out my mum moved into a housing association ground floor flat here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.53689 ... authuser=0

The flats were well maintained and while small were built to a decent standard. In fact after the GSV car took the photo the flat roof was replaced with a pitched roof. They have small gardens that the HA will maintain if the resident is unable to. While she was there they refitted the kitchen and replaced the CH boiler. The HA had a 24 hour 7 day a week emergency contact number and the one time she it used there was an electrician on site within 2 hours.

In terms of new build quality I am not so sanguine about that, in fact my experience is rather the opposite, the only new build house I bought was riddled with faults. Part of the problem is that often fitting out , wiring and plumbing is done by sub contractors who are a paid a fixed price per house/flat so speed is of the essence. Quality control is left to the buyer. They were quite shocked when after being in for a week I marched into the sales office with a punch list of defects to be fixed.

The very worst value in terms of flats are those built specifically as 'Retirement Communities'. They tend to be massively overpriced and rarely reach the cost they were sold for even when resold several years later. Management fees are typically extortionate as well.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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KeithW wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 In terms of new build quality I am not so sanguine about that, in fact my experience is rather the opposite, the only new build house I bought was riddled with faults. Part of the problem is that often fitting out , wiring and plumbing is done by sub contractors who are a paid a fixed price per house/flat so speed is of the essence. Quality control is left to the buyer. They were quite shocked when after being in for a week I marched into the sales office with a punch list of defects to be fixed.
So the lessons of Ronan Point and the debacle that was system build prefab buildings being shoddily assembled by untrained workers on price work haven't been learned then.

And I agree; we had to live in a rented house after a flood in 2002. The new house was riddled with build quality issues, and despite us being the first tenant it looked like it had already been lived in for years as a result.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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I live in a modern (1999) house and I am the first occupant. For the most part, the quality has actually been really good in terms of fit and finish and so on. The exception is the heating/plumbing which seems to have been done according the slapdash model Keith describes, and has given some residents problems. Nothing really major but lots of niggling stuff. One problem has been that these snags have only emerged over the years, rather than being immediately apparent at the beginning.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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roadtester wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:22 There certainly are some valid reasons for preferring detached - e.g. avoiding the potential for party wall disputes or having your life wrecked by noisy neighbours.
I live in a semi-detached (ex. council) the only real issue being that the walls are really thin and not properly sound proofed. We can't hear next door talking but can hear the likes of them hoovering, but especially the dogs howling - they have two husky type dogs and for whatever reason 8-10pm they spent the entire time howling :roll:. Makes it really difficult to just watch TV and relax.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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FosseWay wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:07 I think this is partly correct, at least. In places with a greater tradition of living in apartments - i.e. where people actively choose this rather than it just being Hobson's choice - there is more choice in kind of apartment, and the apartments available are of higher general quality. Sure, there are some people who specifically value having a garden or some other feature of a detached house on its own plot that is incompatible with most flats however luxurious they are. But equally, there are some people who actively don't want a garden or the need to maintain the infrastructure of their dwelling, and who actively want to live in a central location. These people are traditionally less well catered for in the UK than in some other places, so they go for the next best alternative. And that is often a detached house (perhaps a modern one with minimal garden) rather than a flat, because the available flats are too far from what they're looking for.

There is also a general problem with build quality in the UK - perhaps not now with new builds, but until sufficiently recently that most properties available are problematic. Noise for example - it is possible to insulate against the normal noise of daily life from the flat next door - things like music played at a normal volume, babies crying, dogs barking, washing machines on spin etc. - but IME at least, this is rarely the reality. Flats in many developments in the UK seem to be designed to the lowest common denominator by entities that know that the people who will live there will have little choice. The exception is the really high end kind of development you see along the waterfront in London, but these are out of reach price-wise to more or less everyone.
When I worked in Germany in the nineties, I rented a new build top floor flat. That was built to a high/spacious spec with very high - almost double UK height - ceilings and huge windows letting in floods of light, and had a proper underground parking garage and so on.

Nobody would have considered it an inferior alternative to a cramped corner-cutting UK developer-built house but there isn't much of that sort of quality when it comes to UK flats - at least not in provincial, not overtly luxury developments.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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I've never found new builds an attractive proposition, mainly because of the terrible design decisions made by the big developers and as KeithW says the rather poor standard of mechanical and electrical works.

Some of the classics I've seen include a friend's new build which had an utility room with a small radiatior that was apparently designed to take a washing machine and tumble dryer side by side. The problem being that to get one of them in you had to take the radiator off its mounts. Another colleague had a new build where her partner went to install blinds in the bathroom and it turned out the plumbers had run a cold water feed directly across the top of the window, exactly where you'd drill to mount an standard set of blinds (they found that one out the hard way). The main issue is that its not the subcontractor's name on the job, its Bloor/Taylor Wimpey or whoever, so there's literally no reason for them to do a tidy job. See also any contractors working for local housing associations.

There's also a lot of difficulty with getting phone and internet service in to new builds, especially if you're one of the first folks to move in. You're dependant on three things having happened:

1: The developer has properly registered the address of your new house with the Royal Mail's postcode database

2: Openreach has run the cable from its network to the new development

3: The developers have correctly installed your house phone wiring and any ducting Openreach needs to connect its network to your house

If any of those three haven't been done, it'll be a a massive challenge to get any services in place.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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roadtester wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:55
When I worked in Germany in the nineties, I rented a new build top floor flat. That was built to a high/spacious spec with very high - almost double UK height - ceilings and huge windows letting in floods of light, and had a proper underground parking garage and so on.

Nobody would have considered it an inferior alternative to a cramped corner-cutting UK developer-built house but there isn't much of that sort of quality when it comes to UK flats - at least not in provincial, not overtly luxury developments.
That's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. If you gave people a choice like that, I bet there would a lot of demand.
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:38
KeithW wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 In terms of new build quality I am not so sanguine about that, in fact my experience is rather the opposite, the only new build house I bought was riddled with faults. Part of the problem is that often fitting out , wiring and plumbing is done by sub contractors who are a paid a fixed price per house/flat so speed is of the essence. Quality control is left to the buyer. They were quite shocked when after being in for a week I marched into the sales office with a punch list of defects to be fixed.
So the lessons of Ronan Point and the debacle that was system build prefab buildings being shoddily assembled by untrained workers on price work haven't been learned then.

And I agree; we had to live in a rented house after a flood in 2002. The new house was riddled with build quality issues, and despite us being the first tenant it looked like it had already been lived in for years as a result.
I didnt say that, in fact the build quality of the house itself was quite good apart from squeaky floors that just needed extra screws to hold them down. and a gap under the rear door. The biggest problems were with the plumbing and electricity, mostly relatively minor but annoying. Hot and cold taps on the wrong side of the basin for example. The gas and electricity lines were checked by the utility companies before the supply was turned on, something both they and I picked up on was that the cabling from the main supply to the distribution board was not in a conduit but just stapled to the wall and the breaker board was mounted too high so you couldnt reset a tripped breaker without using a step ladder. There was nothing prefabricated about the house fabric. It was of conventional cavity wall construction with brick on the outside and breeze block inside. Internal walls were mostly stud walls but they contained insulation so sound carry was low. As with many new houses the real problem is you dont get the keys until completion and find yourself moving into a new house with no light fittings , light bulbs, carpets, curtains or even curtain rails.

It couldnt have been too bad as when I put it up for sale. It appeared online on Friday and I had 3 viewings in the first week and an acceptable offer a week later :)

The common land out back where kids could play dafely didnt hurt of course :)
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Mark Hewitt wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:52
I live in a semi-detached (ex. council) the only real issue being that the walls are really thin and not properly sound proofed. We can't hear next door talking but can hear the likes of them hoovering, but especially the dogs howling - they have two husky type dogs and for whatever reason 8-10pm they spent the entire time howling :roll:. Makes it really difficult to just watch TV and relax.
Have you considered soundproofing? I used to know someone who did that, it's cheaper than you might think, and you only lose about 30mm along the wall
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Herned wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:13
Mark Hewitt wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:52
I live in a semi-detached (ex. council) the only real issue being that the walls are really thin and not properly sound proofed. We can't hear next door talking but can hear the likes of them hoovering, but especially the dogs howling - they have two husky type dogs and for whatever reason 8-10pm they spent the entire time howling :roll:. Makes it really difficult to just watch TV and relax.
Have you considered soundproofing? I used to know someone who did that, it's cheaper than you might think, and you only lose about 30mm along the wall
It's worth a thought actually, perhaps when we come to redecorate the living room. I assume it's just panels you nail/screw to the wall?
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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Mark Hewitt wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:16
It's worth a thought actually, perhaps when we come to redecorate the living room. I assume it's just panels you nail/screw to the wall?
Essentially yes, they use more fancy fittings to avoid sound being transmitted, but the basic stuff is two layers of high density plasterboard with something similar to fibreglass insulation in the middle I think
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Re: BBC: New UK housing ‘dominated by roads’

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KeithW wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:11
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:38
KeithW wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 In terms of new build quality I am not so sanguine about that, in fact my experience is rather the opposite, the only new build house I bought was riddled with faults. Part of the problem is that often fitting out , wiring and plumbing is done by sub contractors who are a paid a fixed price per house/flat so speed is of the essence. Quality control is left to the buyer. They were quite shocked when after being in for a week I marched into the sales office with a punch list of defects to be fixed.
So the lessons of Ronan Point and the debacle that was system build prefab buildings being shoddily assembled by untrained workers on price work haven't been learned then.

And I agree; we had to live in a rented house after a flood in 2002. The new house was riddled with build quality issues, and despite us being the first tenant it looked like it had already been lived in for years as a result.
I didnt say that, in fact the build quality of the house itself was quite good apart from squeaky floors that just needed extra screws to hold them down. and a gap under the rear door. The biggest problems were with the plumbing and electricity, mostly relatively minor but annoying. Hot and cold taps on the wrong side of the basin for example. The gas and electricity lines were checked by the utility companies before the supply was turned on, something both they and I picked up on was that the cabling from the main supply to the distribution board was not in a conduit but just stapled to the wall and the breaker board was mounted too high so you couldnt reset a tripped breaker without using a step ladder. There was nothing prefabricated about the house fabric. It was of conventional cavity wall construction with brick on the outside and breeze block inside. Internal walls were mostly stud walls but they contained insulation so sound carry was low. As with many new houses the real problem is you dont get the keys until completion and find yourself moving into a new house with no light fittings , light bulbs, carpets, curtains or even curtain rails.
One thing that is really important on a new build is the snagging process, where you get the chance to walk through the property with a representative of the builder looking out for issues. A lot of people don't really use this opportunity properly, perhaps because they are a bit excited by their new place and don't look at it with a sufficiently cold eye.

The other thing is that with a new, as opposed to old, house, it is at least usually nominally someone's job to sort problems for you for a combination of reasons - e.g. goodwill, fear of bad publicity, NHBC warranty or whatever it's called these days, builder's own warranty/undertakings.

A lot of it is down to how on the ball the owner is in spotting this stuff and insisting on getting it sorted.

My first property (1980s flat in South London built by Bellway) was also a new build and that was almost a zero defect job. The only snag was spotted by IIRC the building society surveyor doing his once-over-lightly valuation inspection - earth bonding wiring present but not connected to the pipework under the kitchen sink, a requirement I think may have been dropped since anyway.

I think a lot of the new build worries may be over-done, probably being based on particularly egregious examples that are the ones that tend to be widely reported.

And there's nothing to stop anyone getting a proper survey done before accepting a new build house.
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