Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Glenn A
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Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Glenn A »

I notice now the current toll for a car to use the Tyne Tunnel is £ 1.80. In 1967, when the tunnel opened, the original toll was 2/6( 12.5 p in decimal money). In real terms this works out at about the same as in 1967, so isn't such a huge rise as it looks. From a similar era, how much have tolls risen in the Dartford Tunnel over the years?
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KeithW
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:15 I notice now the current toll for a car to use the Tyne Tunnel is £ 1.80. In 1967, when the tunnel opened, the original toll was 2/6( 12.5 p in decimal money). In real terms this works out at about the same as in 1967, so isn't such a huge rise as it looks. From a similar era, how much have tolls risen in the Dartford Tunnel over the years?
The Dartford Tunnel was 6 old pence or 2.5 p when it opened in 1963 and is now £2.50 but of course in 1963 there was only one S2 tunnel, no M25 and no bridge.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/?ti ... ord_Tunnel

From the SABRE Wiki: Dartford Tunnel :


The Dartford Tunnel is a river crossing on the A282 (not the M25 as commonly believed). It spans the River Thames between Dartford in Kent and Thurrock in Essex, carrying northbound traffic. It is one of the most important river crossings in Britain, and indeed in Europe. The current crossing consists of two tunnels and the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge, a cable stayed bridge. The tunnels were built in stages between 1936 and 1980.

The crossing

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Glenn A
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Glenn A »

KeithW wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:07
Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:15 I notice now the current toll for a car to use the Tyne Tunnel is £ 1.80. In 1967, when the tunnel opened, the original toll was 2/6( 12.5 p in decimal money). In real terms this works out at about the same as in 1967, so isn't such a huge rise as it looks. From a similar era, how much have tolls risen in the Dartford Tunnel over the years?
The Dartford Tunnel was 6 old pence or 2.5 p when it opened in 1963 and is now £2.50 but of course in 1963 there was only one S2 tunnel, no M25 and no bridge.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/?ti ... ord_Tunnel
So in real terms this is a big rise, as 2.5 pence in 1963 will be about 45 pence now. However, there is the bridge to pay for. ( Always remember this from the opening credits of Essex Boys, when the car crosses the bridge into Essex).

From the SABRE Wiki: Dartford Tunnel :


The Dartford Tunnel is a river crossing on the A282 (not the M25 as commonly believed). It spans the River Thames between Dartford in Kent and Thurrock in Essex, carrying northbound traffic. It is one of the most important river crossings in Britain, and indeed in Europe. The current crossing consists of two tunnels and the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge, a cable stayed bridge. The tunnels were built in stages between 1936 and 1980.

The crossing

... Read More
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chaseracer
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by chaseracer »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:22Always remember this from the opening credits of Essex Boys, when the car crosses the bridge into Essex).
Against the traffic...? :o :wink:
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KeithW
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:22 So in real terms this is a big rise, as 2.5 pence in 1963 will be about 45 pence now. However, there is the bridge to pay for. ( Always remember this from the opening credits of Essex Boys, when the car crosses the bridge into Essex).
The bridge and the second tunnel which opened in 1980. The crossing approaches are also vastly different now. Just getting to the tunnel from the North involved going round the North Circular to the A13 at Barking and hacking your way along the then suburban route past the Ford Dagenham plant. This is the route the A13 followed in that period.
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Glenn A
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Glenn A »

chaseracer wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:35
Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:22Always remember this from the opening credits of Essex Boys, when the car crosses the bridge into Essex).
Against the traffic...? :o :wink:
I wonder if this was some kind of trick as the camera does show them heading into Essex, when in reality this would be impossible.
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Big Nick
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Big Nick »

Glenn A wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 17:40
chaseracer wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:35
Glenn A wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:22Always remember this from the opening credits of Essex Boys, when the car crosses the bridge into Essex).
Against the traffic...? :o :wink:
I wonder if this was some kind of trick as the camera does show them heading into Essex, when in reality this would be impossible.
Quite possibly the bridge had been closed for maintenance and the film makers took advantage of it?
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Glenn A »

Big Nick wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 20:58
Glenn A wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 17:40
chaseracer wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 13:35
Against the traffic...? :o :wink:
I wonder if this was some kind of trick as the camera does show them heading into Essex, when in reality this would be impossible.
Quite possibly the bridge had been closed for maintenance and the film makers took advantage of it?
All I can think of is the Bentley is definitely heading north and there's a sign saying Essex.
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

The Tyne Tunnel have officially announced they are implementing open road ANPR rolling in November.

Payment being made on app or website, pre-paid or pay until midnight the day after or cash at Pay Point.

Cue a lot of comments saying how it's insane and unfair and they are doing doing it so they can fine people.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by A303Chris »

I have not got a problem with this, but as I said on the FB post on the subject, why cant we have a national system like the French which covers all toll tunnels and bridges instead of having separate accounts for each one, you can add LEZ's to that as well.

I have a small box in my car which covers all autoroutes in France (there are 5 operators I think), toll bridges, tunnels and last time in 2019 even some car parks.

Is it to much to ask to do that here?
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KeithW
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

A303Chris wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:17 I have not got a problem with this, but as I said on the FB post on the subject, why cant we have a national system like the French which covers all toll tunnels and bridges instead of having separate accounts for each one, you can add LEZ's to that as well.

I have a small box in my car which covers all autoroutes in France (there are 5 operators I think), toll bridges, tunnels and last time in 2019 even some car parks.

Is it to much to ask to do that here?

Well for one thing they have different owners in different countries. Lets look at some examples.

The Tyne Tunnel is owned by the North East Combined Authority and operated by a concessionaire https://www.tt2.co.uk/
The Dartford Crossing is owned by the Department for Transport and operated by Highways England.
The Forth Crossing is owned by the Scottish Government and operated by Highways Scotland.
The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Then of course the LEZ and Congestion Charge are under the control of Transport for London.

There you have it - devolution in action.
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Bryn666
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:45
A303Chris wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:17 I have not got a problem with this, but as I said on the FB post on the subject, why cant we have a national system like the French which covers all toll tunnels and bridges instead of having separate accounts for each one, you can add LEZ's to that as well.

I have a small box in my car which covers all autoroutes in France (there are 5 operators I think), toll bridges, tunnels and last time in 2019 even some car parks.

Is it to much to ask to do that here?

Well for one thing they have different owners in different countries. Lets look at some examples.

The Tyne Tunnel is owned by the North East Combined Authority and operated by a concessionaire https://www.tt2.co.uk/
The Dartford Crossing is owned by the Department for Transport and operated by Highways England.
The Forth Crossing is owned by the Scottish Government and operated by Highways Scotland.
The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Then of course the LEZ and Congestion Charge are under the control of Transport for London.

There you have it - devolution in action.
It is still not beyond the wit of man to have a single gov.uk payment page which has a drop down menu to allow you to pay the relevant toll though.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Chris Bertram »

KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:45
A303Chris wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:17 I have not got a problem with this, but as I said on the FB post on the subject, why cant we have a national system like the French which covers all toll tunnels and bridges instead of having separate accounts for each one, you can add LEZ's to that as well.

I have a small box in my car which covers all autoroutes in France (there are 5 operators I think), toll bridges, tunnels and last time in 2019 even some car parks.

Is it to much to ask to do that here?

Well for one thing they have different owners in different countries. Lets look at some examples.

The Tyne Tunnel is owned by the North East Combined Authority and operated by a concessionaire https://www.tt2.co.uk/
The Dartford Crossing is owned by the Department for Transport and operated by Highways England.
The Forth Crossing is owned by the Scottish Government and operated by Highways Scotland.
The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Then of course the LEZ and Congestion Charge are under the control of Transport for London.

There you have it - devolution in action.
Hang on, the Severn Crossings are also Highways England, aren't they?
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06
KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:45
A303Chris wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:17 I have not got a problem with this, but as I said on the FB post on the subject, why cant we have a national system like the French which covers all toll tunnels and bridges instead of having separate accounts for each one, you can add LEZ's to that as well.

I have a small box in my car which covers all autoroutes in France (there are 5 operators I think), toll bridges, tunnels and last time in 2019 even some car parks.

Is it to much to ask to do that here?

Well for one thing they have different owners in different countries. Lets look at some examples.

The Tyne Tunnel is owned by the North East Combined Authority and operated by a concessionaire https://www.tt2.co.uk/
The Dartford Crossing is owned by the Department for Transport and operated by Highways England.
The Forth Crossing is owned by the Scottish Government and operated by Highways Scotland.
The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Then of course the LEZ and Congestion Charge are under the control of Transport for London.

There you have it - devolution in action.
It is still not beyond the wit of man to have a single gov.uk payment page which has a drop down menu to allow you to pay the relevant toll though.
Indeed it isn't ! In simple terms a central charging server would be set up with either a log-on screen with choice of bridge/crossings for paying, or a mobile phone app that has an either auto-pay or manual payment option. Each bridge operator, when a vehicle is detected, would send a simple message to this server requesting payment for the reg number that has passed over the crossing. THe central server would initially respond confirming the vehicle is on an account or not, request the toll and when paid, pass it into the bank account of the crossing operator, together with a 'payment received' message. This is obviously only a broad outline. Also government would no doubt have to chivvy the crossing operators to contribute in setting up the system. I would have thought it would allow them to save money in operating the tolling system. I recently set up my Merseyflow app on my phone, and invoked 'Autopay' and it works brilliantly. I got a message re a payment whilst I was still on the way home !
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06It is still not beyond the wit of man to have a single gov.uk payment page which has a drop down menu to allow you to pay the relevant toll though.
Are you sure it isn't beyond the wit of HMG? Really sure. Really, really sure? :roll:
Last edited by Conekicker on Tue Aug 24, 2021 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by SteveA30 »

Ah well, I'll avoid all that nonsense by doing the tunnel in September, after my break on the journey to Scotland. I'd already done A19 up to A1231 so, early the next morning, back along the A2131 and up the A19 to A1, completing that section of A19. £1.90 in the correct change and then, never again once ANPR tolls are in. Dartford has been forbidden territory since their big mistake was implemented. Up the A1 and a few days covering west of M74 mostly, with some A7 and A702 thrown in.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:15
KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:45 The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.
Hang on, the Severn Crossings are also Highways England, aren't they?
Yes, and they're also not tolled.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

fras wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 Indeed it isn't ! In simple terms a central charging server would be set up with either a log-on screen with choice of bridge/crossings for paying, or a mobile phone app that has an either auto-pay or manual payment option. Each bridge operator, when a vehicle is detected, would send a simple message to this server requesting payment for the reg number that has passed over the crossing. THe central server would initially respond confirming the vehicle is on an account or not, request the toll and when paid, pass it into the bank account of the crossing operator, together with a 'payment received' message. This is obviously only a broad outline. Also government would no doubt have to chivvy the crossing operators to contribute in setting up the system. I would have thought it would allow them to save money in operating the tolling system. I recently set up my Merseyflow app on my phone, and invoked 'Autopay' and it works brilliantly. I got a message re a payment whilst I was still on the way home !
The problem is not so much technical its organisational and political. I would bet serious money that the systems were never designed to be accessed in this way, they almost certainly use different database structures and very likely use different interface protocols. My experience of working with government IT projects is not encouraging.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 16:18
fras wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 Indeed it isn't ! In simple terms a central charging server would be set up with either a log-on screen with choice of bridge/crossings for paying, or a mobile phone app that has an either auto-pay or manual payment option. Each bridge operator, when a vehicle is detected, would send a simple message to this server requesting payment for the reg number that has passed over the crossing. THe central server would initially respond confirming the vehicle is on an account or not, request the toll and when paid, pass it into the bank account of the crossing operator, together with a 'payment received' message. This is obviously only a broad outline. Also government would no doubt have to chivvy the crossing operators to contribute in setting up the system. I would have thought it would allow them to save money in operating the tolling system. I recently set up my Merseyflow app on my phone, and invoked 'Autopay' and it works brilliantly. I got a message re a payment whilst I was still on the way home !
The problem is not so much technical its organisational and political. I would bet serious money that the systems were never designed to be accessed in this way, they almost certainly use different database structures and very likely use different interface protocols. My experience of working with government IT projects is not encouraging.
As ever the solution is simple: one page on the gov.uk site that is easy to find in Google, then it just gives you the relevant link to each operator if co-operation is too scary for them all to contemplate.

"Where to pay road user charges" would be very simple to create, and not require any backdoor hacking and would be an easier step. Given gov.uk already has Dart Charge a simple expansion of this would not be difficult.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

SteveA30 wrote:Ah well, I'll avoid all that nonsense by doing the tunnel in September, after my break on the journey to Scotland. I'd already done A19 up to A1231 so, early the next morning, back along the A2131 and up the A19 to A1, completing that section of A19. £1.90 in the correct change and then, never again once ANPR tolls are in. Dartford has been forbidden territory since their big mistake was implemented. Up the A1 and a few days covering west of M74 mostly, with some A7 and A702 thrown in.
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