Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:16
jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 09:59 Thus building pressure for more widespread road charging - which is why these demand-based tolls are so heavily opposed in some quarters. (I think that's inevitable and probably sensible, but we're maybe not quite there yet.)
I suspect building opposition to more widespread road charging is more likely. UK drivers don't like road charging - see M6 Toll as an example. They rather take the view that between VAT, fuel excise duty and annual road tax they are already paying through the nose. The Blair government proposed this in 2005 and it proved to so politically toxic the idea was quietly dropped. Now the loss of fuel excise revenues may force some such system but I have to say some of the proposed schemes which include mandatory GPS traffic monitoring systems which can automatically debit a card or bank account extremely troubling. They already do this Singapore BUT the flip side there is the State also provides an excellent pubic transport system. Worse al least one pundit has suggested variable charges which would increase as congestion rises. So not only is Big Brother tracking you every movement but charging you more for the privilege if the road is inadequate - no thanks.

The usual caveat applies - Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it !
As you identify, petrol duty & VAT is going to dwindle to nothing over the next decade or two, and growing congestion issues - which drove the first national flirtation with congestion charging in the 00s and are now driving the accelerated introduction of LTNs - are only going to get worse. I suspect the introduction would come with a 'carrot' - such as big local transport improvements for charged areas and ring-fenced funding for motorways - just as some of the failed congestion charging schemes did.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:31 As you identify, petrol duty & VAT is going to dwindle to nothing over the next decade or two, and growing congestion issues - which drove the first national flirtation with congestion charging in the 00s and are now driving the accelerated introduction of LTNs - are only going to get worse. I suspect the introduction would come with a 'carrot' - such as big local transport improvements for charged areas and ring-fenced funding for motorways - just as some of the failed congestion charging schemes did.
There is a simpler and less intrusive system used in Switzerland in the form of a Motorway Vignette which is a sticker that permits vehicles with one to access certain roads. The roads that are maintained by Highways England could require that such a pass is currently held. As I recall all commercial vehicles in Switzerland are required to have a vignette regardless of the types of road they use.

Its not road charging per se that I object to its the snoopers paradise that dynamic vehicle tracking would introduce and worse not knowing how much driving to a destination would cost. I saw that in action when it was first introduced in Singapore and it was not pretty. Essentially a card reader is installed in all cars and every time you pass a charge point cash is deducted. Now here is the real shocker, pricing has two levels peak and off peak but get stuck in a traffic jam and your off peak journey can become a peak time journey doubling the cost.

Oh if your prepaid card runs out of credit you are automatically sent a penalty notice. Get diverted and you can end up going through more control points also increasing the cost. Now this is barely acceptable in the context of a congested city state with an excellent public transport system, try and roll out such a system in North Yorkshire and it would not go down well. Think of an Island about the size and shape of the Isle of Wight and a population pushing 6 million and you have a conception of Singapore.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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KeithW wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 13:38
jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:31 As you identify, petrol duty & VAT is going to dwindle to nothing over the next decade or two, and growing congestion issues - which drove the first national flirtation with congestion charging in the 00s and are now driving the accelerated introduction of LTNs - are only going to get worse. I suspect the introduction would come with a 'carrot' - such as big local transport improvements for charged areas and ring-fenced funding for motorways - just as some of the failed congestion charging schemes did.
There is a simpler and less intrusive system used in Switzerland in the form of a Motorway Vignette which is a sticker that permits vehicles with one to access certain roads. The roads that are maintained by Highways England could require that such a pass is currently held. As I recall all commercial vehicles in Switzerland are required to have a vignette regardless of the types of road they use.

Its not road charging per se that I object to its the snoopers paradise that dynamic vehicle tracking would introduce and worse not knowing how much driving to a destination would cost. I saw that in action when it was first introduced in Singapore and it was not pretty. Essentially a card reader is installed in all cars and every time you pass a charge point cash is deducted. Now here is the real shocker, pricing has two levels peak and off peak but get stuck in a traffic jam and your off peak journey can become a peak time journey doubling the cost.

Oh if your prepaid card runs out of credit you are automatically sent a penalty notice. Get diverted and you can end up going through more control points also increasing the cost. Now this is barely acceptable in the context of a congested city state with an excellent public transport system, try and roll out such a system in North Yorkshire and it would not go down well. Think of an Island about the size and shape of the Isle of Wight and a population pushing 6 million and you have a conception of Singapore.
That is a way of raising some money from motorists but doesn't enable variable pricing based on usage (which fuel duty currently delivers on to some degree) and targeted congestion control/traffic reduction (which is at least if not more important on urban roads than motorways).

Singapore is a dictatorship; as a democratic country we already accept a lot of tracking in our daily lives, both on and off the road, on the basis that there's a legal framework for how our data will be managed (GDPR etc) and a means of individual redress through the Information Commissioner and the courts. I don't think tracking concerns would be a practical barrier to road pricing in and of itself.

The main barrier would be direct objection to charging and press stories about heavy peak time road users who would end up paying much more to continue their existing lifestyles. But I think a good retail offer to the average motorist to the effect of - 'book' a journey a short time in advance, get a quote for the price and a guaranteed journey time delivered by targeted demand management (or a refund) - could actually be very popular with a large contingent of drivers, especially if flexibility allows them to reduce their costs considerably.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
This is why I find motorway-only tolling in Europe a bit of an anachronism in the 21st century - surely you want as much traffic to take motorways as possible to keep the urban and rural roads more pleasant and safe? I guess this is why many urban motorways are toll-free.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:20
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
This is why I find motorway-only tolling in Europe a bit of an anachronism in the 21st century - surely you want as much traffic to take motorways as possible to keep the urban and rural roads more pleasant and safe? I guess this is why many urban motorways are toll-free.
I don’t know who is now paying for the upkeep of the Severn bridges - I suspect the Welsh Government. Removing the tolls will certainly improve links between South Wales and England and should also remove traffic that would otherwise go from London to South Wales via Birdlip from the A50.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.

Neither, frankly the idea of politicians restricting traffic as they see fit gives me the horrors. The only justification for tolls is recovering the capital investment and covering maintenance.

Raise the Dartford Toll to £50 and you will swamp the M25 and other river crossings, worse traffic at Dartford would likely fall to an extent that tolls would no longer cover the running costs and service the capital spent on the Queen Elizabeth Bridge. Always bear in mind the law of unintended consequences.

Let me give you an example, the toll on the bridge across the Ouse at Selby was just a few pennies but the effect of stopping to pay it could cause queues that were long enough to make a diversion over the swing bridge at Cawood worth while when I was heading for York.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... oll_Bridge
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 13:53 The main barrier would be direct objection to charging and press stories about heavy peak time road users who would end up paying much more to continue their existing lifestyles. But I think a good retail offer to the average motorist to the effect of - 'book' a journey a short time in advance, get a quote for the price and a guaranteed journey time delivered by targeted demand management (or a refund) - could actually be very popular with a large contingent of drivers, especially if flexibility allows them to reduce their costs considerably.
So explain to me how this could realistically work when I am travelling from the North East to Kent. Depending on traffic congestion anywhere between Wetherby and Dartford the journey time from Teesside to the Dartford Crossing can be anything between 5 and 9 hours. Although the latter is towards the end of the probability scale it has happened.

This was only a 'life style choice' in so far as I chose to work for a living rather than sign on the dole.

Then there is the little matter of all the commercial traffic. At Dartford the A282 carries 120 k of traffic 40k of which consists of HGV's and LGV's which is of course why they are planning to build another Thames Crossing downriver. Frankly I cannot imagine anyone deliberately choosing to go via Dartford because its a nice route. 40 years ago there were other options, my Sunday night route back to Kent took me through the City of London and the Rotherhithe Tunnel as there was no M25 and only 1 tunnel at Dartford. Getting to the Blackwall Tunnel in those days was a drag and this was the A13 at the time.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.53095 ... 8192?hl=en

The DfT and TfL understandably would rather keep through traffic out of central London
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... itle=A1306

From the SABRE Wiki: A1306 :

The A1306 follows the old route of the A13 in south Essex and received its current designation when the present A13 opened in 1999.


The road starts at a roundabout GSJ on the A13 to the west of Dagenham. The road heads east along the D2 Ripple Road, with houses to the north and an out-of-town retail complex to the south. The A1240 Heathway is met at traffic lights and we continue on, now lined with houses (at least to the north)

... Read More
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 13:29
jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 13:53 The main barrier would be direct objection to charging and press stories about heavy peak time road users who would end up paying much more to continue their existing lifestyles. But I think a good retail offer to the average motorist to the effect of - 'book' a journey a short time in advance, get a quote for the price and a guaranteed journey time delivered by targeted demand management (or a refund) - could actually be very popular with a large contingent of drivers, especially if flexibility allows them to reduce their costs considerably.
So explain to me how this could realistically work when I am travelling from the North East to Kent. Depending on traffic congestion anywhere between Wetherby and Dartford the journey time from Teesside to the Dartford Crossing can be anything between 5 and 9 hours. Although the latter is towards the end of the probability scale it has happened.
The idea is that pricing manages congestion throughout the whole route, encouraging more flexible travellers away from the busiest times and routes allowing relatively constant (or at least predictable) journey times, not dissimilar to peak time charging/advance booking on trains. And much like trains, it would make sense if you got a refund when unexpected circumstances (like a crash) lengthened your journey time.
KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:31
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
Raise the Dartford Toll to £50 and you will swamp the M25 and other river crossings, worse traffic at Dartford would likely fall to an extent that tolls would no longer cover the running costs and service the capital spent on the Queen Elizabeth Bridge. Always bear in mind the law of unintended consequences.

Let me give you an example, the toll on the bridge across the Ouse at Selby was just a few pennies but the effect of stopping to pay it could cause queues that were long enough to make a diversion over the swing bridge at Cawood worth while when I was heading for York.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... oll_Bridge
Clearly this solution is to manage prices to drive efficient use of the asset. If you raise prices to £50 universally and the bridge empties then you reduce the price to allow freeflow traffic but avoid congestion. Dynamically priced tolling schemes are starting to pop up across the world. (And you make use of ANPR or similar to allow freeflow charging and avoid unnecessary queues.)
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:31
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54 This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.

Neither, frankly the idea of politicians restricting traffic as they see fit gives me the horrors. The only justification for tolls is recovering the capital investment and covering maintenance.

... snip ...
I believe that the whole rationale for the Dublin Port Tunnel was to allow HGVs from the ferries to get onto the Irish motorway system without passing through the centre of Dublin. The €10 fee is to keep commuter cars out of the Dublin City Centre as most of them could use the DART system.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 14:16 The idea is that pricing manages congestion throughout the whole route, encouraging more flexible travellers away from the busiest times and routes allowing relatively constant (or at least predictable) journey times, not dissimilar to peak time charging/advance booking on trains. And much like trains, it would make sense if you got a refund when unexpected circumstances (like a crash) lengthened your journey time.
Unfortunately in the real world if I have to drive to Kent I cannot always, or often come to that, predict that several days in advance.
jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 14:16 Clearly this solution is to manage prices to drive efficient use of the asset. If you raise prices to £50 universally and the bridge empties then you reduce the price to allow freeflow traffic but avoid congestion. Dynamically priced tolling schemes are starting to pop up across the world. (And you make use of ANPR or similar to allow freeflow charging and avoid unnecessary queues.)
And in the meantime you turn the M25 and much of the south east into a parking lot. This is not considered sound economic practise.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54 This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
If about money is the aim to maximise income or profit, ie to reduce maintenance also? And is the money to be used to maintain and improve roads, to improve public transport, to reduce other taxes, or to fill the Treasury?

Or if a plan then what plan? Eg do we prioritise congestion or pollution?

Interesting questions indeed. Don't expect an answer from the politicians any time soon. Instead expect the answer to be whatever is likely to lose fewest votes. Then expect it to change when the fuel duty and road tax start to dwindle. And expect a different answer if there's an election approaching. :stir:
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 16:41 I believe that the whole rationale for the Dublin Port Tunnel was to allow HGVs from the ferries to get onto the Irish motorway system without passing through the centre of Dublin. The €10 fee is to keep commuter cars out of the Dublin City Centre as most of them could use the DART system.
I get the reasons for commuters but they really should work with the ferries and offer a free pass for anyone using them. Would help congestion massively since loads of people get off the ferry and head straight through the centre rather than paying €13.10 (M50). Took ages aswell since half the ferry joined us the last time we went through.

Not to mention it's a rather long way round if you want to use the M7 or anywhere South from there.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jabbaboy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 20:53 Not to mention it's a rather long way round if you want to use the M7 or anywhere South from there.
In that case, it might be worth looking to use a service that come in to Dun Laoghaire.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 21:04
jabbaboy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 20:53 Not to mention it's a rather long way round if you want to use the M7 or anywhere South from there.
In that case, it might be worth looking to use a service that come in to Dun Laoghaire.
Hasn't been any ferries to Dun Laoghaire for over 5 years now. They scrapped it when they pulled the HSS. Used to prefer it.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jabbaboy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 21:16
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 21:04
jabbaboy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 20:53 Not to mention it's a rather long way round if you want to use the M7 or anywhere South from there.
In that case, it might be worth looking to use a service that come in to Dun Laoghaire.
Hasn't been any ferries to Dun Laoghaire for over 5 years now. They scrapped it when they pulled the HSS. Used to prefer it.
I took the HSS seven years ago, but hadn't realised that the route had been scrapped.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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Vierwielen wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:27I don’t know who is now paying for the upkeep of the Severn bridges - I suspect the Welsh Government. Removing the tolls will certainly improve links between South Wales and England and should also remove traffic that would otherwise go from London to South Wales via Birdlip from the A50.
No, they're managed by National Highways, and have always been under English management. The tolls were removed several years ago and they are now paid for out of general taxation.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

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jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:20
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 21:54
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
This raises the question - should tolls be used to extract the maximum amount of money or to regulate traffic according to a specific plan. The Dublin Port Tunnel is a good example of the latter - goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes are exempt from charges (which keeps them out of Dublin city centre); vehicles under 3.5 tonnes are subject to a €10 charge when travelling southwards during the weekday morning rush hours or northwards during the weekday evening rush hours, otherwise they are charged €3.
This is why I find motorway-only tolling in Europe a bit of an anachronism in the 21st century - surely you want as much traffic to take motorways as possible to keep the urban and rural roads more pleasant and safe? I guess this is why many urban motorways are toll-free.
I've noticed when we're driving through Poland on the A2 from the German border to Warsaw, many lorries turn off before the tolled sections and use the old road that the motorway was supposed to relieve! It suits me to have less traffic on the road we're using though.

This is approaching a tolled section and you can see the commercial vehicles crossing the bridge to pick up the old road to the east of Poznan.
https://goo.gl/maps/Kb4arkbpQYd4wPnb7
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jnty »

KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 18:27
jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 14:16 The idea is that pricing manages congestion throughout the whole route, encouraging more flexible travellers away from the busiest times and routes allowing relatively constant (or at least predictable) journey times, not dissimilar to peak time charging/advance booking on trains. And much like trains, it would make sense if you got a refund when unexpected circumstances (like a crash) lengthened your journey time.
Unfortunately in the real world if I have to drive to Kent I cannot always, or often come to that, predict that several days in advance.
Why would you need to book several days in advance? It would be technologically relatively simple to make the booking immediate at the time of departure, taking into account speed/cost preferences.
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Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:09
KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 18:27
jnty wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 14:16 The idea is that pricing manages congestion throughout the whole route, encouraging more flexible travellers away from the busiest times and routes allowing relatively constant (or at least predictable) journey times, not dissimilar to peak time charging/advance booking on trains. And much like trains, it would make sense if you got a refund when unexpected circumstances (like a crash) lengthened your journey time.
Unfortunately in the real world if I have to drive to Kent I cannot always, or often come to that, predict that several days in advance.
Why would you need to book several days in advance? It would be technologically relatively simple to make the booking immediate at the time of departure, taking into account speed/cost preferences.
If your pricing is based on dynamic levels it will have changed in the 5 or 6 hours to get to the crossing, its either dynamic or not - oh and congestion is not all that predictable. 2 years ago I left Headcorn at 7 AM heading for the crossing which was running freely at the time . At 9.30 I was still on the A228 approaching Dartford, it seems a tanker got stuck blocking one of the tunnels - chaos ensued. That was a nasty trip, the M11 was also closed at J12 by a burst water main that flooded the road, luckily I know all the back roads and cut across country to the A1198.
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