Tyne Tunnel tolls

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31412
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Reports this morning of queues back to Testos. So something has gone wrong here.
SteveA30
Member
Posts: 6018
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by SteveA30 »

Do a Severn Bridge(s) and it will smooth itself out in minutes and stay that way.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31412
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

SteveA30 wrote:Do a Severn Bridge(s) and it will smooth itself out in minutes and stay that way.
What was that?
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Bryn666 »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 17:00
SteveA30 wrote:Do a Severn Bridge(s) and it will smooth itself out in minutes and stay that way.
What was that?
Abolish the tolls. Which of course, if they weren't there the tunnel would still be S2 as National England Agency for Highways wouldn't have been likely to have done any work on this corridor - the tunnel has driven Testos and Silverlink, not the other way around.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
jabbaboy
Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 09:25
Location: Newcastle

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jabbaboy »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 18:55 Abolish the tolls. Which of course, if they weren't there the tunnel would still be S2 as National England Agency for Highways wouldn't have been likely to have done any work on this corridor - the tunnel has driven Testos and Silverlink, not the other way around.
It definitely would be, it's privately owned the Tyne Tunnel (well technically not private) by NECA (which is the 7 North East councils around the Tyne). The tunnel is paid for on a PFI scheme paid from the tolls. The only way you could abolish it is by the £150m+ of debt off for the tunnel and I doubt anyone is too keen on that.
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by fras »

Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Chris5156 »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:28 Reports this morning of queues back to Testos. So something has gone wrong here.
How much of this is the effect of traffic having to slow to filter through the old toll booths? Presumably plans are afoot to demolish the old toll plazas and just have two traffic lanes running through, at which point I would expect it to move freely.
User avatar
JammyDodge
Member
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 13:17

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by JammyDodge »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 21:01
Mark Hewitt wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:28 Reports this morning of queues back to Testos. So something has gone wrong here.
How much of this is the effect of traffic having to slow to filter through the old toll booths? Presumably plans are afoot to demolish the old toll plazas and just have two traffic lanes running through, at which point I would expect it to move freely.
Also, people stopping at the booths that are no longer in use
Designing Tomorrow, Around the Past
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31412
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Chris5156 wrote:
Mark Hewitt wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:28 Reports this morning of queues back to Testos. So something has gone wrong here.
How much of this is the effect of traffic having to slow to filter through the old toll booths? Presumably plans are afoot to demolish the old toll plazas and just have two traffic lanes running through, at which point I would expect it to move freely.
I think that's the main part of it. People approaching the booths for the first time, unsure exactly how to proceed. The same as we see on the open road it only takes one person to be extra hesitant and slow right down or stop then the effects ripple back and the congestion remains often for a long time after the initial slowdown has cleared.

Even among people responding to articles about how exactly it is going to work often didn't understand "but I still have to stop at the booth right", or a lot of "Why was there only two lanes open? That's crazy". If people presented with information ahead of time still don't get it, then encountering the whole concept for the first time while making the crossing is going to be even worse.
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31412
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Part of me thinks they should just open the 7 lanes through the booths just so it's a more familiar setup. And then put it at two lanes once the booths have gone.
User avatar
JammyDodge
Member
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 13:17

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by JammyDodge »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 08:08 Part of me thinks they should just open the 7 lanes through the booths just so it's a more familiar setup. And then put it at two lanes once the booths have gone.
They can't if they want to demolish the booths during the day
Designing Tomorrow, Around the Past
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

JammyDodge wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 09:26
Mark Hewitt wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 08:08 Part of me thinks they should just open the 7 lanes through the booths just so it's a more familiar setup. And then put it at two lanes once the booths have gone.
They can't if they want to demolish the booths during the day
Fine so they open 4 booths, demolish 3 and then witch traffic to the 3 free lanes while they demolish the rest. Just opening 2 was a really bad idea in my opinion.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jnty »

When the new 70mph Queensferry Crossing opened to replace the 50mph Forth Bridge, it was incredible how many people still drove at 50mph out of a kind of 'muscle memory' for a long time after. I still think a bit of it goes on but of course that's probably confirmation bias. At some point you just have to accept that roads are driven on by fallible creatures of habit and wait it out, rather than throwing money and resources at yet more signage or nagging or processes to 'help' them do the right thing a week earlier.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

Well traffic seems to be moving better today. It seems they now have removed the booths.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/ ... first-day/
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... s-22098813
'

There are reportedly problems with the TT iphone app.
User avatar
Mark Hewitt
Member
Posts: 31412
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:54
Location: Chester-le-Street

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Mark Hewitt »

KeithW wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:02 Well traffic seems to be moving better today. It seems they now have removed the booths.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/ ... first-day/
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... s-22098813
'

There are reportedly problems with the TT iphone app.
I think that is confused reporting. AFAIK the booths are still there just with barriers open. It is that IMO that has been the main issue. Reading those stories seems lots of instances of people stopping at the booth unsure what to do. Anyone stopping on a busy D2 even for a second is going to cause chaos.
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Are the tunnels signed with the red C charge signs now?
User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5674
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Vierwielen »

fras wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06
KeithW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 09:45

Well for one thing they have different owners in different countries. Lets look at some examples.

The Tyne Tunnel is owned by the North East Combined Authority and operated by a concessionaire https://www.tt2.co.uk/
The Dartford Crossing is owned by the Department for Transport and operated by Highways England.
The Forth Crossing is owned by the Scottish Government and operated by Highways Scotland.
The Severn Crossings are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Then of course the LEZ and Congestion Charge are under the control of Transport for London.

There you have it - devolution in action.
It is still not beyond the wit of man to have a single gov.uk payment page which has a drop down menu to allow you to pay the relevant toll though.
Indeed it isn't ! In simple terms a central charging server would be set up with either a log-on screen with choice of bridge/crossings for paying, or a mobile phone app that has an either auto-pay or manual payment option. Each bridge operator, when a vehicle is detected, would send a simple message to this server requesting payment for the reg number that has passed over the crossing. THe central server would initially respond confirming the vehicle is on an account or not, request the toll and when paid, pass it into the bank account of the crossing operator, together with a 'payment received' message. This is obviously only a broad outline. Also government would no doubt have to chivvy the crossing operators to contribute in setting up the system. I would have thought it would allow them to save money in operating the tolling system. I recently set up my Merseyflow app on my phone, and invoked 'Autopay' and it works brilliantly. I got a message re a payment whilst I was still on the way home !
Such a system could also be integrated with the Congestion Charge system as well. An alternative to having the government do this is to have the private sector do it and to use the ATM network for payment in the same way that you can top up your mobile phone at an ATM. All that you will need to do is to enter your car reg number. I don't think that much chivvy up will be needed, the central operator already has most of the hardware infrastructure in place and they will charge the operators a commission for processing the payment.
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9776
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by Glenn A »

fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
Raising the tolls would probably mean long distance traffic would be more tempted to use the A1 over the A19. The Tyne Tunnel and A19 act as an alternative route for long distance traffic going north to south and south to north, and with the second tunnel and the reconstruction of the Silverlink and Testos roundabouts has made it more attractive.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by jnty »

Glenn A wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 16:14
fras wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 19:52 Things like this that are tolled, the answer is to raise the tolls until the congestion disappears, OR maybe to have variable tolls based on traffic levels. Would the DART crossing be so busy if the toll was £50 at peak periods ? I don't think so.
Raising the tolls would probably mean long distance traffic would be more tempted to use the A1 over the A19.
Thus building pressure for more widespread road charging - which is why these demand-based tolls are so heavily opposed in some quarters. (I think that's inevitable and probably sensible, but we're maybe not quite there yet.)
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Tyne Tunnel tolls

Post by KeithW »

jnty wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 09:59 Thus building pressure for more widespread road charging - which is why these demand-based tolls are so heavily opposed in some quarters. (I think that's inevitable and probably sensible, but we're maybe not quite there yet.)
I suspect building opposition to more widespread road charging is more likely. UK drivers don't like road charging - see M6 Toll as an example. They rather take the view that between VAT, fuel excise duty and annual road tax they are already paying through the nose. The Blair government proposed this in 2005 and it proved to so politically toxic the idea was quietly dropped. Now the loss of fuel excise revenues may force some such system but I have to say some of the proposed schemes which include mandatory GPS traffic monitoring systems which can automatically debit a card or bank account extremely troubling. They already do this Singapore BUT the flip side there is the State also provides an excellent pubic transport system. Worse al least one pundit has suggested variable charges which would increase as congestion rises. So not only is Big Brother tracking you every movement but charging you more for the privilege if the road is inadequate - no thanks.

The usual caveat applies - Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it !
Post Reply