A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

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milly
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by milly »

Do we trust Lancashire County Council to do a good job of erecting new signs?
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by AndyB »

On the subject of the legal orders, my understanding is that as soon as the legal orders are made, the signage becomes unenforceable, to the extent that L drivers cannot be prosecuted for driving onto a road still signed as a motorway, stopping is no longer prohibited, and the presence of the motorway signs means that drivers cannot be prosecuted for doing anything less than 70mph, even though the legal speed limit is 60mph.

It's much the same as if new speed limits are introduced or one way streets are reversed. Until the signage is brought up to date, the previous restrictions are unenforceable but for speed limits, there is still room to enforce against the higher of the posted speed limit and the legal speed limit.

On the OSM question, I think it's right to reflect Motorway signage in a way that doesn't matter when an AP road is renumbered or reclassified as another AP road. The absence of a blue line means that at the time of publication (and online maps class as ongoing publication), you should expect not to find blue signs.

As for replacement signs, don't post the one they get right all at once in case we die of shock :D
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Chris56000 »

Hi!

Further to the above LCC actually commissioned Jacobs to do a full Option Assessment Report on the condition of overbridges on the A601(M), and two of the options present retain the Motorway Regulations.

There was, at one time, a number of very small "chopsticks" signs erected at intervals round the roundabout on lighting columns to remind drivers Motorway Regulations were still in force on the roundabout – these were removed with the lighting columns some years ago, but a worded "MOTORWAY REGULATIONS Pedestrians No Stopping" replaced them and two small post–mounted "chopsticks" with "No Pedestrians" roundel were added in the verges more recently – these should have all been removed now!

It isn't clear whether there's been any more progress on this since the Order cancelling the Motorway Regulations on the M6 roundabout itself and the southern Over Kellet Link came into force on 4th March!

The report is difficult to find, every link I tried today was dead, but there's a copy here:–

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l294adc2qdlqa ... 4.pdf?dl=0

Regarding the prohibition on stopping, this is still in force on the downgraded (now B6254) section by way of the D.W.L. system!

Chris Williams
Last edited by Chris56000 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Bryn666
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

The junction was never lit but there were definitely plenty of "still a motorway" type signs dotted around the roundabout regardless.

Sadly Lancs CC have gone full on development at any cost. Even their talk of the A56 bypass of Colne involves putting a roundabout on the M65 west of J14 which presumably will allow lots of infill crudbox development to take place and undermine the purpose of the bypass.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Chris56000 »

The junction was never lit but there were definitely plenty of "still a motorway" type signs dotted around the roundabout regardless.
Ah, I stand corrected! It might have been one of the other interchanges, such as the M6/M61/M65 roundabout that had chopsticks on the lighting columns!

Studying the Jacobs Report, the recommended options are either the refurbishment of North Road Bridge and cancelling the Motorway Regulations, retaining the link as all–purpose dual carriageway, (option 3), or complete removal of North Road Bridge with an at–grade connection added to link to the remaining part of North Road, again cancelling the Motorway Regulations, (option 5) but this option still retains the link as dual carriageway.

Option 4, removal of North Road Bridge and downgrading to single–carriageway with at–grade connection to North Road wasn't recommended because it was suggested "the reduction in capacity would hinder further development of the Carnforth area".

Chris Williams
Last edited by Chris56000 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Bryn666
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris56000 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:15
The junction was never lit but there were definitely plenty of "still a motorway" type signs dotted around the roundabout regardless.
Ah, I stand corrected! It might have been one of the other interchanges, such as the M6/M61/M65 roundabout that had chopsticks on the lighting columns!

Chris Williams
The M65 roundabouts certainly do have standalone chopstick signs on lighting columns. All the roundabouts in the NW do - see A627(M) and M58 eastern end too.

The NI TSRGD has it as a prescribed sign, they're not prescribed in England so don't know if the then HA authorised them. Highways England can't authorise its own signs.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by booshank »

Whatever the motivation, there is some sense I think in tidying this up to better align the British legal definition of "motorway" with the general definition. Having a road like this that is legally a motorway but doesn't have many motorway characteristics isn't particularly helpful. Perhaps similar to not designating new D3 roads missing hard shoulder as motorway, as the public generally feels a motorway should have one and a motorway-like road without one is substandard.

Eg the OECD glossary of statistics has this entry for "motorway":-

French Equivalent: Autoroute

Definition:
Road, specially designed and built for motor traffic, which does not serve properties bordering on it, and which:

(a) is provided, except at special points or temporarily, with separate carriageways for the two directions of traffic, separated from each other, either by a dividing strip not intended for traffic, or exceptionally by other means;

(b) does not cross at level with any road, railway or tramway track, or footpath;

(c) is specially sign-posted as a motorway and is reserved for specific categories of road motor vehicles.

Entry and exit lanes of motorways are included irrespectively of the location of the sign-posts. Urban motorways are also included.

Source Publication:
Glossary for Transport Statistics, prepared by the Intersecretariat Working Group on Transport Statistics – Eurostat, European Conference of Ministers of Transport (ECMT), United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE).
Last edited by booshank on Sun Sep 13, 2020 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Rambo »

No changes to any signs yet..
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by ais523 »

booshank wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 19:24Eg the OECD glossary of statistics has this entry for "motorway":-

French Equivalent: Autoroute

Definition:
Road, specially designed and built for motor traffic, which does not serve properties bordering on it, and which:

(a) is provided, except at special points or temporarily, with separate carriageways for the two directions of traffic, separated from each other, either by a dividing strip not intended for traffic, or exceptionally by other means;

(b) does not cross at level with any road, railway or tramway track, or footpath;

(c) is specially sign-posted as a motorway and is reserved for specific categories of road motor vehicles.
Is the bolded the only part of this definition that isn't violated by at least one UK motorway in practice? (Or is there a tram/railway level crossing on a motorway somewhere?)
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by wrinkly »

Chris56000 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:50
Further to the above LCC actually commissioned Jacobs to do a full Option Assessment Report on the condition of overbridges on the A601(M), and two of the options present retain the Motorway Regulations.

[snip]

The report is difficult to find, every link I tried today was dead, but there's a copy here:–

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l294adc2qdlqa ... 4.pdf?dl=0
There now seems to be a copy of the Jacobs report on the Lancs CC website:

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/913 ... ort-v4.pdf

You'll never guess where I learned this ... in an obscure corner of the Rail UK forums where they talk about roads! I only discovered the relevant subforum a week or two ago.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Micro The Maniac »

From reading that report it is pretty clear that the decision to despecialisation was pre-made...

Downgrading from motorway to single-carriageway seems absolutely crazy.....
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

Even though I like cycle provision... what exactly does it achieve here? Cycle down to M6 J35 and then where?

This is less about maintenance of the oldest surviving stretch of motorway in the North West and more about enabling the construction of shoebox houses to meet government targets.

The capacity of a single carriageway with an at grade junction will be swamped if they do that, but not to worry because there'll be a cycle track connection between zilch and bugger all.
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Norfolktolancashire
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:06 Even though I like cycle provision... what exactly does it achieve here? Cycle down to M6 J35 and then where?

This is less about maintenance of the oldest surviving stretch of motorway in the North West and more about enabling the construction of shoebox houses to meet government targets.

The capacity of a single carriageway with an at grade junction will be swamped if they do that, but not to worry because there'll be a cycle track connection between zilch and bugger all.
Some of those new houses will border the Carnforth Truck Haven. That'll be interesting for the new residents with the fun and games on that site!
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by traffic-light-man »

I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Rambo »

traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
The Tin of Roses? 😜

Did you save any? you’d think those 20 roundels would get re used somewhere.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Pendlemac »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:06 Even though I like cycle provision... what exactly does it achieve here? Cycle down to M6 J35 and then where?

This is less about maintenance of the oldest surviving stretch of motorway in the North West and more about enabling the construction of shoebox houses to meet government targets.

The capacity of a single carriageway with an at grade junction will be swamped if they do that, but not to worry because there'll be a cycle track connection between zilch and bugger all.
Meant to write this at the time this was posted but forgot.

The cycle path will connect with the Lancaster Canal towpath, giving traffic-free access down to the centre of Carnforth and Lancaster. So hardly zilch or bugger all.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
So does this mean they're actually doing it now? I sense a trip coming on.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by traffic-light-man »

Rambo wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:58
traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
The Tin of Roses? 😜

Did you save any? you’d think those 20 roundels would get re used somewhere.
I was surprised to see those 20 signs in the skip given they look like they'd be alright with a bit of soapy water! I didn't save the signs though, no, they're a bit on the large side :lol:
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 19:22
traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
So does this mean they're actually doing it now? I sense a trip coming on.
I would presume so, though I haven't been up to Carnforth recently so I can't confirm that. I suppose the signs could've ended up in the skip for other reasons but it seems unlikely.
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by Bryn666 »

traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 20:02
Rambo wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:58
traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
The Tin of Roses? 😜

Did you save any? you’d think those 20 roundels would get re used somewhere.
I was surprised to see those 20 signs in the skip given they look like they'd be alright with a bit of soapy water! I didn't save the signs though, no, they're a bit on the large side :lol:
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 19:22
traffic-light-man wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 17:37 I spotted this out the corner of my eye yesterday. A sad sight.
So does this mean they're actually doing it now? I sense a trip coming on.
I would presume so, though I haven't been up to Carnforth recently so I can't confirm that. I suppose the signs could've ended up in the skip for other reasons but it seems unlikely.
I of course didn't have many kind words about signing on the A601(M), but I'd have just fixed the signs rather than approve a Porsche dealers on it.
Bryn
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milly
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Re: A601(M) Carnforth Link Road Downgrading

Post by milly »

The former A601(M) link from the M6 roundabout to the B6254 has been renamed the B6601, it is only signed from the M6 roundabout on very small black on white signage.
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