Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

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KeithW
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by KeithW »

c2R wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 21:58
I never said it was, or that there aren't - I have travelled the length of the A1 between Alconbury and Scotch Corner about 50 times a year for the last decade, so am fairly well acquainted!

Great Ponton is a different kettle of fish as the road wasn't a new build, it was an online upgrade. When this section of A1 was built, it would have been relatively straightforward to divert the footpath around and underneath the Wentbridge Viaduct. And it would still be relatively easy to do that here.

Well if we are swapping time lines I have been driving along the A1 regularly since 1979. The Wentbridge viaduct was built in 1961, before that the A1 went through the village along what is now the B6474. There is in fact a footpath from Wentbridge under the viaduct to Kirk Smeaton. The crossing point you mention is where Jacksons Lane which went from Wentbridge to Brockadale Oaks Farm and Brockadale Plantation which is now nature reserve. Both are now accessed from Kirk Smeaton along Leys Lane.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.14928 ... 6656?hl=en

See also
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/53. ... 1585997385
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Big L
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Big L »

Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:29 ...Yes, structures are the most expensive bits of a highway scheme, but bridges catering for NMUs are nowhere near as expensive as those which need to carry 16.5m artics...
If they would just build bridges rather than some kind of architectural masterpieces they would be even cheaper...
Make poetry history.

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Helvellyn
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Helvellyn »

There's this one on the A6 Chapel-en-le-Frith bypass, doesn't exactly look well used though and I've never seen anyone using it.
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KeithW
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by KeithW »

Al__S wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 09:32 one of the worst things in British road policy of the last 70+ years has been the effective near severance of rights of way when building 70mph roads by building steps down an embankment (with a stile over the fence at the top) and putting a small gap in the crash barrier on the central reservation and going "look, there you go, sorted".
This is in fact a policy that has changed considerably for the better in the last 20 years. Look at almost any recent road development scheme and there will be a section on provision for non motorised users.

Take the A14 for example, the old A604 was never exactly user friendly. When first dualled the junctions at locations such as Bar Hill were simply flat tees. Many a terrified moped rider and the occasional mobility scooter have been rescued from it over the years. The problem in fact it goes back far longer than 70 years , neither the Barnet Bypass nor the original North Circular were exactly user friendly. The pre war North Orbital must have been lethal as were most roads in that era. In the late 1930's RTC's were killing nearly 10,000 people per year in the UK.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by KeithW »

Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:43 Good luck getting anything other than a standard 2-wheeled bicycle through the chicanes. Because of course pedestrians and cyclists can't be trusted not to cross without looking.
Given some of the horrific near misses at this one I would suggest that is in fact correct.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52376 ... 6656?hl=en

Before they put the barriers in and cut back the hedges often the first clue you got was a cyclist riding across the zebra crossing in front of you.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by ais523 »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:28
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:26 The A14 has a fair few footpath crossings along its length with but a central reservation gap and a couple of warning signs. IIRC this was part of the reason that Catthorpe to J1 couldn't become a motorway.
Surely they could have just built a footbridge?
They did in fact build an underpass eventually (long after the road was opened, though), so the crossings between Catthorpe and J1 are no longer in use. It's here, and makes use of the same bridge that's used to cross the river.
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Debaser
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:59
Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:43 Good luck getting anything other than a standard 2-wheeled bicycle through the chicanes. Because of course pedestrians and cyclists can't be trusted not to cross without looking.
Given some of the horrific near misses at this one I would suggest that is in fact correct.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52376 ... 6656?hl=en

Before they put the barriers in and cut back the hedges often the first clue you got was a cyclist riding across the zebra crossing in front of you.
Turning into a side road from one direction and cresting a rise from the other and running between a public park and a primary school, with, as you say a zebra crossing in front on a carriageway looking to be less than 6m wide? I'd hope drivers would certainly be driving to those conditions and be prepared for anything to happen.
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Debaser
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:49
Al__S wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 09:32 one of the worst things in British road policy of the last 70+ years has been the effective near severance of rights of way when building 70mph roads by building steps down an embankment (with a stile over the fence at the top) and putting a small gap in the crash barrier on the central reservation and going "look, there you go, sorted".
This is in fact a policy that has changed considerably for the better in the last 20 years. Look at almost any recent road development scheme and there will be a section on provision for non motorised users.
Sections which, in my experience (therfore anecdotal) aren't worth the time and energy they took to write. Absolute lip service.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by yen_powell »

I've crossed a few railway lines that cross footpaths, you just open the gate, look both ways and then scuttle across trying not to think about mad men in top hats (with evil moustaches) tying people onto the rails you are now trying not to trip over so you lay there with a twisted ankle.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by nick_dunn »

There are three examples of this within a one-mile stretch of the A456 as it bypasses Halesowen. This is one of the few remaining bits of NSL D2 on this road. All three crossing points are warning-signed at 350yds and again on immediate approach. The road borders a housing estate on one side and open countryside on the other so the crossings are quite often used by walkers / dog walkers etc.
Crossing 1
Crossing 2
Crossing 3
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KeithW
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by KeithW »

Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 13:53 Sections which, in my experience (therfore anecdotal) aren't worth the time and energy they took to write. Absolute lip service.

I suggest you take a look at what has been done on the A14. This pedestrian and cycle bridge is rather more than lip service.

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Debaser
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 14:46
Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 13:53 Sections which, in my experience (therfore anecdotal) aren't worth the time and energy they took to write. Absolute lip service.

I suggest you take a look at what has been done on the A14. This pedestrian and cycle bridge is rather more than lip service.

One scheme out of how many? From what I see of the public consultation documentation versus the final scheme designs (and I'm working on Highways England schemes in the south-west, south and east of England) this is the exception that proves the rule.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by KeithW »

Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 13:47 Turning into a side road from one direction and cresting a rise from the other and running between a public park and a primary school, with, as you say a zebra crossing in front on a carriageway looking to be less than 6m wide? I'd hope drivers would certainly be driving to those conditions and be prepared for anything to happen.
Indeed but cyclists riding at speed across the road from a blind spot on your left can be a challenge to say the least. Remember a driver is is sitting rather lower than the camera of a Google Street View car. This is why the barriers were put across the shared cycle/foot path before the crossing. They have 2 functions, 1) Alerting the cyclists to crossing traffic and 2) the sight of the barriers alerts drivers to the risk. The road has a 20 mph speed limit. In that part of Coulby Newham most footways and shared use routes are actually grade separated for NMU's

This is how pedestrians and cyclists from that primary school cross Stainton Way.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52146 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

Helvellyn wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:28 There's this one on the A6 Chapel-en-le-Frith bypass, doesn't exactly look well used though and I've never seen anyone using it.
And this is the final nail in the coffin of getting improvements to NMU infrastructure - current lack of usage.

I suspect many schemes in the current roads programme are re-visiting the sites of previous improvements, roads which will have NMU infrastructure provision similar to what we see in this thread. Unfortunately, because of this, the remaining bits of the footpaths and bridleways beyond the crossings are unlikely to be used as they are now, to all intents and purposes, severed; they're dead ends going nowhere, except possibly to a nice viewpoint of the trunk road. Therefore getting a bridge or underpass to re-create the historic link is going to be impossible.
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Debaser
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 15:06 ...In that part of Coulby Newham most footways and shared use routes are actually grade separated for NMU's

This is how pedestrians and cyclists from that primary school cross Stainton Way.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52146 ... 8192?hl=en
Impressive. Shows what we can do (or could do - past tense) with a little thought and planning. NMU routes apparently more direct and shorter than the highways - that's a start on how to get people to shift modes.

Unfortunately unlikely to be seen again, unless local authorities take up house building and can specify this sort of infrastructure.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by WHBM »

It's surely still preferable to cross a 70mph dual carriageway one direction at a time than a 60mph single carriageway where you have to judge two opposite directions at once. This latter case applies to thousands of villages and smaller settlements where, for example, they have to go up to the main road end and cross it to catch the bus.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

WHBM wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 15:58 It's surely still preferable to cross a 70mph dual carriageway one direction at a time than a 60mph single carriageway where you have to judge two opposite directions at once. This latter case applies to thousands of villages and smaller settlements where, for example, they have to go up to the main road end and cross it to catch the bus.
I don't think we should be putting members of the public in either of those positions.

We wouldn't think about making construction or maintenance personnel do this despite the various inductions, training and toolbox talks they go through - CDM and the HSE loom too large to even suggest it. Yet apparently we consider it an acceptable risk for poor sods who have none of this and who will be exposed to the risk for far longer and on a more regular basis than those road workers.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Helvellyn »

WHBM wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 15:58 It's surely still preferable to cross a 70mph dual carriageway one direction at a time than a 60mph single carriageway where you have to judge two opposite directions at once. This latter case applies to thousands of villages and smaller settlements where, for example, they have to go up to the main road end and cross it to catch the bus.
Depends on the road I'd say. There are thousands of miles of 60 mph S2 with thousands of footpaths crossing them and it would be absurd to suggest that anywhere near all of them need anything more than people being careful and sensible. Some certainly do, most don't.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Helvellyn »

Debaser wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 15:19
Helvellyn wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:28 There's this one on the A6 Chapel-en-le-Frith bypass, doesn't exactly look well used though and I've never seen anyone using it.
And this is the final nail in the coffin of getting improvements to NMU infrastructure - current lack of usage.
That particular example doesn't really go anywhere much that an alternative isn't perfectly viable for. We don't want to fall into the "all or nothing" trap where you've got to apply the same standards for everything, which means a lot of white elephants and pushes up the costs far too much so the definitely useful doesn't get done.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by TomJ »

To add a few to this list, there are a number on the Derby to Burton-on-Trent A38 stretch. Here's 3 I could quickly find, I'm sure there are more a bit further on.
A38 Crossing 1
A38 Crossing 2
A38 Crossing 3

Another one that I can think of from the top of my head is this crossing on the A47 near Easton.

Finally, there are a few on the A11, linked below.
A11 Crossing 1
A11 Crossing 2
A11 Crossing 3

Again, there are probably a few more on this A11 stretch that I've missed.
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