Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

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qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

Piatkow wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 08:29
multiraider2 wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:01
qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 Hi there,

I think I may have posted about this a few years ago but never got any definitive answers, so I'm posting again as I've now discovered two public footpaths - one of them is even signed - that cross the A12 Brentwood Bypass.

First is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6372647 ... 312!8i6656

Second is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6432454 ... 312!8i6656

As you can see, there are clearly provisions made for someone to cross the road, as they have allowed space in the central reservation and with a barrier alongside the road.

The first footpath is publicly signed alongside the road, but the second isn't, even from the A1023 where it begins, and isn't shown on OS maps apart from this one https://footpathmap.co.uk/map/?zoom=16& ... 5722766904

I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
I used to cross the A12 near Romford Golf Course twice a day on my way to and from school in the 60s. I had occasion to walk in that direction when visiting my parents early in the century. Even with lights at the Pettits Lane junction the heavier traffic frightened the life out of me.

Some footpaths have been diverted. Where the A12 runs next to the railway at Mountnessing there was a path which crossed the railway on a rather substantial bridge, probably for farm traffic to the fields under the A12, and then at grade across the bypass. Streetmap shows this abolished a new right of way parallel to both to the nearest road bridges.
Was that section dualled then?
someone
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by someone »

KeithW wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 17:02Not really, at max speed an HST on the ECML covers 2 miles a minute. At Tempsford you can see for at least 3 miles so that if there is nothing in sight you have 90 seconds to walk approx 30 metres. Tempsford was picked simply because the GSV gives a good idea of the visibility you have.
I admit I am bad at judging distances, so this is a genuine question, but can you tell that a vanishing point is located three miles away to make any sort of calculation? And as visibility is not fixed, unless it is a day with obvious low visibility, is it that easy to know whether the vanishing point is three or two miles away?

Though I would also question whether a train three miles away would be visible head on at all. A quick wikipedia search gives a rough height of a train being around 12'6". So for something which appears as 150 inches when a hundred feet away will look like 0.0008 inches at three miles. If it was moving perpendicular to the observer then motion could be detectable, but head on there is nothing detectable until it is much closer.

Putting that in practice, it is about 1⅛ miles between Streatham Hill and Balham railway stations and the line is completely straight. Waiting on the platform of the former, it is still difficult to pick out a train with certainty until it is much closed, at a guess I would say about halfway between them.

So I would not feel comfortable having to cross a high speed line, especially one with more than two tracks, at a location where it is perfectly straight. Because the point at which I will be clearly able to discern a train will be a lot less than 90 seconds away, and I will never know whether a train is just a yard farther back from it to assume it is clear.
JohnnyMo wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 18:01
Gav wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 13:00 https://goo.gl/maps/QGjscxrHrgHBTdXR8

This is the A1 just south of Wallyford…

The A1 here is a special road with the no pedestrian signs etc at all point of entrance.
I can see how pedestrians can cross there, I can't see why. There does not seem to be a foot path either side of the road.
Do you mean the gap? That has been closed, there are wires crossing between both poles of the overlapping final sections of the wire barriers. Presumably there used to be a path there of some kind but it was removed when the road was restricted?
TS
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by TS »

There is a bridleway that used to cross the A338 Bournemouth Spur Road here:

https://goo.gl/maps/env5Hhz4cJx4fYUM9

This link takes you to June 2014, when there was a gap in the central reserve. The sign, which faces bridleway users arriving at the road, says DUAL CARRIAGEWAY AHEAD.

Scroll to May 2017 imagery or later, though, the central reservation gap is closed and, while there is no physical barrier to the pedestrian or rider arriving here, one would have to clamber over the concrete barrier in order to cross. I've done it as a pedestrian but it would be cumbersome with a bike and suicidal on horseback!

See my photo and a little discussion, with link to previous photo
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Big Nick
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Big Nick »

qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:15
Piatkow wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 08:29
Some footpaths have been diverted. Where the A12 runs next to the railway at Mountnessing there was a path which crossed the railway on a rather substantial bridge, probably for farm traffic to the fields under the A12, and then at grade across the bypass. Streetmap shows this abolished a new right of way parallel to both to the nearest road bridges.
Is this bridge still there?
No. The old farm bridge was removed long ago (probably when the railway was electrified) and the footpath diverted to the road/rail bridges north and south.
It crossed the railway north of Arnolds Farm. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 16&layer=6
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Debaser
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

someone wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:38
KeithW wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 17:02Not really, at max speed an HST on the ECML covers 2 miles a minute. At Tempsford you can see for at least 3 miles so that if there is nothing in sight you have 90 seconds to walk approx 30 metres. Tempsford was picked simply because the GSV gives a good idea of the visibility you have.
I admit I am bad at judging distances, so this is a genuine question, but can you tell that a vanishing point is located three miles away to make any sort of calculation? And as visibility is not fixed, unless it is a day with obvious low visibility, is it that easy to know whether the vanishing point is three or two miles away?
If we have it bad as adults spare a thought for kids. Often accused of 'running out without looking', it may be that they do in fact look, it's just that they are unable to easily judge the speed of the approaching vehicle when it's travelling above 20mph. It would be nice to think this might make some people adjust their attitudes to 20mph limits.

I know it won't.

https://travelwest.info/project/ee-no-1 ... ian-safety

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 7611400917
Scratchwood
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Scratchwood »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:49
Al__S wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 09:32 one of the worst things in British road policy of the last 70+ years has been the effective near severance of rights of way when building 70mph roads by building steps down an embankment (with a stile over the fence at the top) and putting a small gap in the crash barrier on the central reservation and going "look, there you go, sorted".
This is in fact a policy that has changed considerably for the better in the last 20 years. Look at almost any recent road development scheme and there will be a section on provision for non motorised users.

Take the A14 for example, the old A604 was never exactly user friendly. When first dualled the junctions at locations such as Bar Hill were simply flat tees. Many a terrified moped rider and the occasional mobility scooter have been rescued from it over the years. The problem in fact it goes back far longer than 70 years , neither the Barnet Bypass nor the original North Circular were exactly user friendly. The pre war North Orbital must have been lethal as were most roads in that era. In the late 1930's RTC's were killing nearly 10,000 people per year in the UK.
Yes the A1 Barnet Way is really annoying as it splits the Scratchwood and Mount Moat open spaces. As a result the London Loop orbital walk has to make a really annoying 1km diversion alongside the A1 to find a subway and then back up the other side! The centre reservation has a fence above it to presumably deter people from trying to walk across...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6311335 ... 384!8i8192
Al__S
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Al__S »

KeithW wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:49
This is in fact a policy that has changed considerably for the better in the last 20 years. Look at almost any recent road development scheme and there will be a section on provision for non motorised users.
Absolutely. And the standards continue to improve- though local experience with the actual quality of the new A14 stuff, and the reticence of the A428 project team to pay anything but lip service to the latest standards (never mind go above and beyond in an area which merits it), shows there's still room for improvement in the attitudes.
Piatkow
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:23
Piatkow wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 08:29
multiraider2 wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:01

Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
I used to cross the A12 near Romford Golf Course twice a day on my way to and from school in the 60s. I had occasion to walk in that direction when visiting my parents early in the century. Even with lights at the Pettits Lane junction the heavier traffic frightened the life out of me.

Some footpaths have been diverted. Where the A12 runs next to the railway at Mountnessing there was a path which crossed the railway on a rather substantial bridge, probably for farm traffic to the fields under the A12, and then at grade across the bypass. Streetmap shows this abolished a new right of way parallel to both to the nearest road bridges.
Was that section dualled then?
How old do you think I am?
qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

Piatkow wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 13:34
qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:23
Piatkow wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 08:29
I used to cross the A12 near Romford Golf Course twice a day on my way to and from school in the 60s. I had occasion to walk in that direction when visiting my parents early in the century. Even with lights at the Pettits Lane junction the heavier traffic frightened the life out of me.

Some footpaths have been diverted. Where the A12 runs next to the railway at Mountnessing there was a path which crossed the railway on a rather substantial bridge, probably for farm traffic to the fields under the A12, and then at grade across the bypass. Streetmap shows this abolished a new right of way parallel to both to the nearest road bridges.
Was that section dualled then?
How old do you think I am?
When you say the Romford Golf course, do you mean the one on the Eastern Ave. or the one on the Colchester Rd approachign Brook Street on the Chelmsford bound side? I believe that section was only dualed in the 70s
Piatkow
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

Big Nick wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:46
qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:15
Piatkow wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 08:29
Some footpaths have been diverted. Where the A12 runs next to the railway at Mountnessing there was a path which crossed the railway on a rather substantial bridge, probably for farm traffic to the fields under the A12, and then at grade across the bypass. Streetmap shows this abolished a new right of way parallel to both to the nearest road bridges.
Is this bridge still there?
No. The old farm bridge was removed long ago (probably when the railway was electrified) and the footpath diverted to the road/rail bridges north and south.
It crossed the railway north of Arnolds Farm. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 16&layer=6
The bridge wasn't demolished until after the Mountnessing Bypass was built, long after electrifictation. It was certainly still there when I lived in Hutton in the mid 70s. The 1988 Landranger shows the bridge and the right of way still crossing the A12.
Piatkow
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 13:35
Piatkow wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 13:34
qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:23

Was that section dualled then?
How old do you think I am?
When you say the Romford Golf course, do you mean the one on the Eastern Ave. or the one on the Colchester Rd approachign Brook Street on the Chelmsford bound side? I believe that section was only dualed in the 70s
Romford Golf Club is the one on the Eastern Avenue.
qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

Piatkow wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 13:43
Big Nick wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:46
qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:15

Is this bridge still there?
No. The old farm bridge was removed long ago (probably when the railway was electrified) and the footpath diverted to the road/rail bridges north and south.
It crossed the railway north of Arnolds Farm. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 16&layer=6
The bridge wasn't demolished until after the Mountnessing Bypass was built, long after electrifictation. It was certainly still there when I lived in Hutton in the mid 70s. The 1988 Landranger shows the bridge and the right of way still crossing the A12.
Interesting, I believe the bypass for Mountnessing was built in 73. Was it a public footpath or road? Was their a rationale for it being demolished?
Piatkow
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

qwertyK wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 14:45
Piatkow wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 13:43
Big Nick wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:46

No. The old farm bridge was removed long ago (probably when the railway was electrified) and the footpath diverted to the road/rail bridges north and south.
It crossed the railway north of Arnolds Farm. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ind ... 16&layer=6
The bridge wasn't demolished until after the Mountnessing Bypass was built, long after electrifictation. It was certainly still there when I lived in Hutton in the mid 70s. The 1988 Landranger shows the bridge and the right of way still crossing the A12.
Interesting, I believe the bypass for Mountnessing was built in 73. Was it a public footpath or road? Was their a rationale for it being demolished?
The bypass was certainly open when I viewed my flat in Hutton in late 73 and moved in in early 74.

The bridge over the railway was an accommodation bridge for Arnolds Farm which also carried the public footpath. The bypass would have wiped out any remaining fields on that side of the railway.

I moved away from the area over 30 years ago and don't know when the footpaths were diverted or the bridge demolished. Apart from the footpath the bridge was redundant and the at-grade crossing of the A12 didn't exactly encourage walkers.
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Big Nick
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Big Nick »

Reminds me of this long disused bridge over the A12 east of Boreham: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.76915 ... 6656?hl=en

This one by the A12 is rather more curious. You can just make out the top of the subway under the railway and the OS maps show the footpath leading to it from the north. But nothing is visible on the south side of the A12 to show where or if it comes out :?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.76499 ... 6656?hl=en

Where does the path go? https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=42b70f46 ... orm=S00027
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by traffic-light-man »

Rambo wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 09:36 There is one here on the St Helens linkway near the M62 junction which is NSL https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4069471 ... 384!8i8192 although i've never seen anybody using it.
The site of a fatal (or perhaps a few, come to think of it), which resulted in these 'BEWARE' signs being erected. As is often the case around these parts, it seems calling Premier TM and asking for a dodgy sign is often the immediate bodge following incidents.

Although there was already the usual 562 with 'Pedestrians crossing' plates, that particular crossing now has them on a yellow background. There's another few crossings further along here and here.

Other ones that spring to mind are the ones on the Northern section of the A565 Formby Bypass. Although now a 60 road, I'd be surprised if the average speed wasn't somewhere in the high 70s. Some have a stagger in the Armco, while some simply have two concrete bollards. All are signed as a Zebra Crossing, though!

There's a few on the A59 Longton Bypass too, which is still NSL. There's this one marked with a gaggle of verge posts. However this one a bit further West is signed with 545s and 'Patrol' plates, complete with flashing lamps. How many instances of NSL dual carriageway school crossing patrols are there?
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

Big Nick wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:14 Reminds me of this long disused bridge over the A12 east of Boreham: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.76915 ... 6656?hl=en

This one by the A12 is rather more curious. You can just make out the top of the subway under the railway and the OS maps show the footpath leading to it from the north. But nothing is visible on the south side of the A12 to show where or if it comes out :?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.76499 ... 6656?hl=en

Where does the path go? https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=42b70f46 ... orm=S00027
If you roll back Streetview to 2009 you get a better view of the railway underpass. It seems to be totally overgrown.

Streetmap has a slightly more up to date OS edition but the rights of way are the same.

Its a long while since I have needed to use the A12, I was trying to remember where that abandoned bridge was. It always used to strike me as strange.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Octaviadriver »

Piatkow wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 14:11 Its a long while since I have needed to use the A12, I was trying to remember where that abandoned bridge was. It always used to strike me as strange.
The abandoned bridge is here.
https://goo.gl/maps/Xfkh2Y3vqF18ijGi7
It appears that the road was severed when the dual carriageway was constructed as there is another road that can be used nearby and it would have been an expensive operation to build a bridge taking the minor road over the A12 as it would have need considerable elevation to give sufficient clearance underneath.
Piatkow
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Piatkow »

Octaviadriver wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 17:17
Piatkow wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 14:11 Its a long while since I have needed to use the A12, I was trying to remember where that abandoned bridge was. It always used to strike me as strange.
The abandoned bridge is here.
https://goo.gl/maps/Xfkh2Y3vqF18ijGi7
It appears that the road was severed when the dual carriageway was constructed as there is another road that can be used nearby and it would have been an expensive operation to build a bridge taking the minor road over the A12 as it would have need considerable elevation to give sufficient clearance underneath.
I had never checked it on a map and had always assumed that it was a redundant accomodation bridge like the one at Mountnessing.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Marty »

As a motorist, while it is helpful to have advance warning that there may be pedestrians crossing ahead, it would greatly assist knowing exactly where they will be crossing. The warning sign sometimes carries with it a plate showing the distance ahead where these pedestrians may be but trying to assess/visualise 150 yards (or 200 yards or 250 yards) is a little difficult when there are many other things going on that also require my attention. Couldn't there be some sort of marking(s) on the road or verge to denote exactly where this crossing point is? If I have passed it, I don't want to be straining looking for it when I could and should be looking for other things around me.
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qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

On the footpath that goes from the top of Chelmsford Rd to the other side of the A12, I ended up crossing using the Hall Lane Bridge just to see what was on the other end. There are footpath signs on the other side, but there was a river, but the bridge across it had collapsed. So clearly has not been used in some time.
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