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qwertyK wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:19
Haha, I have wanted to cross it. As said, I was coming from the Shenfield side from Hall Wood at around seven the other morning, a runner somehow managed to cross it. I was going to cross but I hesistated and didn't want to risk it. The only viable way of getting from one side of the A12 to the other on foot from Shenfield to Pilgrims Hatch today is really just using the Hall Lane bridge, though even that isn't particuarly ideal, given most of the road up to there is unpaved, and although they have put a 30 limit for much of that road, most of it is still NSL somehow and even then cars go faster than that.
Were the provisions in place then for the road to be crossed, eg, in the central reservation?
Any idea about that second footpath? I thought it was a mistake up until today. Sure enough, on the Chelmsford Rd (A1023 side) there is a clearing to go through some brief woodland between there and the A12 to cross, and there is a gap in the central reservation. I think on the other side it takes you out to around Chainbridge Farm. That one isn't labelled at all though, and probably for good reason.
I thought the A12 back in 79' on the Brentwood section had a much wider central reservation with vegetation in it like the section at the western end near Brook street?
If you use the interactive map, there should in fact be three crossing points on this section of the A12.
The A14 has a fair few footpath crossings along its length with but a central reservation gap and a couple of warning signs. IIRC this was part of the reason that Catthorpe to J1 couldn't become a motorway.
rhyds wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:26
The A14 has a fair few footpath crossings along its length with but a central reservation gap and a couple of warning signs. IIRC this was part of the reason that Catthorpe to J1 couldn't become a motorway.
qwertyK wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:19
Haha, I have wanted to cross it. As said, I was coming from the Shenfield side from Hall Wood at around seven the other morning, a runner somehow managed to cross it. I was going to cross but I hesistated and didn't want to risk it. The only viable way of getting from one side of the A12 to the other on foot from Shenfield to Pilgrims Hatch today is really just using the Hall Lane bridge, though even that isn't particuarly ideal, given most of the road up to there is unpaved, and although they have put a 30 limit for much of that road, most of it is still NSL somehow and even then cars go faster than that.
Were the provisions in place then for the road to be crossed, eg, in the central reservation?
Any idea about that second footpath? I thought it was a mistake up until today. Sure enough, on the Chelmsford Rd (A1023 side) there is a clearing to go through some brief woodland between there and the A12 to cross, and there is a gap in the central reservation. I think on the other side it takes you out to around Chainbridge Farm. That one isn't labelled at all though, and probably for good reason.
I thought the A12 back in 79' on the Brentwood section had a much wider central reservation with vegetation in it like the section at the western end near Brook street?
If you use the interactive map, there should in fact be three crossing points on this section of the A12.
Ah yes, I can see that it branches off. I'm surprised they just weren't shortened when the road was built, even if it was less busy then. Or at the very least, they could have put a warning sign.
It was mooted a couple years back that they weer planning to build a subway from Sawyers Hall Lane to the Brentwood Centre on the otherside, which would serve the same function albeit it would be significantly further along
rhyds wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:16
Do statutory wildlife requirements count against such investment? What I mean is the wildlife mitigation (bat bridges etc.) having statutory requriements behind it mean that "has" to have money spent on it, while NMU provision is a "best effort" (i.e. "not much effort")?
The DMRB (supposedly the Bible of trunk road design) has required decent NMU provision to be included in scheme designs since at least 2005;
TA 91/05: Provision for Non-motorised Users wrote:
“1.6 All NMUs have a legal right to use the public highway, unless specifically prohibited.
1.7 Encouraging modal shift, particularly to walking and cycling, has a very important role to play in creating a more integrated and sustainable transport system.
1.8 All-purpose trunk roads typically carry high flows of fast-moving traffic and are generally unattractive for NMUs to travel along or across. However, trunk roads often provide important links or routes for NMUs, representing the quickest, most direct route between key destinations, and are often used because of the lack of more convenient alternatives. As such there is a need to ensure that scheme designs take full account of NMU requirements, and that opportunities are taken to encourage safer and more attractive provision wherever possible.
3.16 A basic principle in scheme design is that the existing rights of way network should be preserved as far as possible, even where usage levels are low. A low level of usage may be as a result of severance and could disguise the fact that a particular path is an essential link for certain local journeys. Preserving the network should save considerable resources, as any diversion will require legal orders, which are normally opposed by user groups. In extreme cases, such a proposed diversion could threaten the delivery of the whole scheme.
3.19 Provision of adequate pedestrian facilities should be considered within every scheme. This may include footpaths (pedestrian rights of way) or footways including appropriate surfaces, kerbs, signing and crossing facilities. The level of provision should also be appropriate to the expected number of users.
3.20 Footways should normally be provided within the highway boundary or in another location in the form of an OCR [Off-Carriageway Route]. In urban situations, footways should normally be provided on both sides of the carriageway, while in rural situations footways should normally be provided on at least one side of the carriageway, to connect to most key destinations.
3.22 Where off-carriageway [cycling] facilities are proposed, it is recommended that they are provided on both sides of the road. Where space is limited, it may be acceptable to provide a two-way facility on one side of the road. However, in unlit areas, cyclists with headlights may cause confusion when heading directly towards motorists. It is therefore recommended that where routes are provided on one side of the road only, a high degree of separation between the carriageway and cycle route should be provided, or street lighting at an appropriate level as agreed with the Overseeing Organisation. Where lighting is required, consideration should be given to light intrusion.
3.26 In exceptional circumstances, it may be acceptable not to provide NMU facilities, for example highways adjacent to tunnels or other route sections that have or will have an NMU prohibition. In such cases Design Organisations should provide explicit justification, with agreement from the Overseeing Organisation, for not providing NMU facilities.
3.27 Where no provision for NMUs is made as part of a scheme, it will be important to ensure that appropriate alternative NMU routes and suitable linkages are provided and signed.
4.5 All OCR types can be financed, designed and implemented by the Overseeing Organisation as long as they are included as part of published statutory orders and receive the appropriate statutory approvals. However, wherever possible the Overseeing Organisation should aim to provide a scheme that links into local networks
Why engineers chose to ignore this pretty explicit advice one might well ask - perhaps because it was classed as 'advice' rather than being in the directives. Whatever, it's been a multi-generational failure by us to properly consider people who choose to use transport modes other than motor vehicles.
Last edited by Debaser on Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:44, edited 1 time in total.
rhyds wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:26
The A14 has a fair few footpath crossings along its length with but a central reservation gap and a couple of warning signs. IIRC this was part of the reason that Catthorpe to J1 couldn't become a motorway.
NICK 647063 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:37Others that come to mind are the A64 between York and Tadcaster, the central barrier was renewed a few years ago and more formal crossing points were put in the central reservation, plenty of pedestrians crossing warnings but this section has seen many fatals involving pedestrians crossing over the years.
At least with the flyover at Bilbrough Top, there is now much less need for people to cross the A64 on the ground. The Ebor Way has been diverted slightly to make use of the flyover and the NMU path on the north side of the road, and while it's still not the most pleasant half-mile section of the route, it is massively safer than it used to be.
Sometimes crossing dual-carriageways can be easier than busy single-carriageways, because at least all traffic is coming from the same direction, which means it can be easier to find safe gaps, for a given level of busyness, although you do then have to do it twice, which can negate that!
I've been there and done that. Brown trouser moment.
It's actually 3 lanes on each side at that point which makes crossing here hard work. When you are knackered after carrying a heavy backpack all day crossing here is a nightmare.
I was here at 6pm on a Friday evening at the height of rush hour and it took me 15 minutes to cross safely in the traffic gaps.
Just 2 hours previously you have to cross the Northallerton-Middlesbrough railway on foot. Steps down to and up from the pair of tracks with no warning bells, just your own caution as to safety of crossing.
I think I may have posted about this a few years ago but never got any definitive answers, so I'm posting again as I've now discovered two public footpaths - one of them is even signed - that cross the A12 Brentwood Bypass.
As you can see, there are clearly provisions made for someone to cross the road, as they have allowed space in the central reservation and with a barrier alongside the road.
The first footpath is publicly signed alongside the road, but the second isn't, even from the A1023 where it begins, and isn't shown on OS maps apart from this one https://footpathmap.co.uk/map/?zoom=16& ... 5722766904
I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
Haha, I have wanted to cross it. As said, I was coming from the Shenfield side from Hall Wood at around seven the other morning, a runner somehow managed to cross it. I was going to cross but I hesistated and didn't want to risk it. The only viable way of getting from one side of the A12 to the other on foot from Shenfield to Pilgrims Hatch today is really just using the Hall Lane bridge, though even that isn't particuarly ideal, given most of the road up to there is unpaved, and although they have put a 30 limit for much of that road, most of it is still NSL somehow and even then cars go faster than that.
Were the provisions in place then for the road to be crossed, eg, in the central reservation?
Any idea about that second footpath? I thought it was a mistake up until today. Sure enough, on the Chelmsford Rd (A1023 side) there is a clearing to go through some brief woodland between there and the A12 to cross, and there is a gap in the central reservation. I think on the other side it takes you out to around Chainbridge Farm. That one isn't labelled at all though, and probably for good reason.
I thought the A12 back in 79' on the Brentwood section had a much wider central reservation with vegetation in it like the section at the western end near Brook street?
Now you are testing my memory! The first thing to say is that there is actually a third crossing of the A12 in this area. The Hall Wood to Pilgrims Hatch footpath splits in two on the Shenfield side and the third crossing is here. You can see the footpath sign in the bushes if you fiddle around with the view. That is near your first example and on reflection is probably where I crossed because this is the branch that leads to Hatch Lane.
I do not remember having to "zig zag" around a gap in the central reservation, from memory it was straight across. A simple gap? And yes I believe it would have been wider than currently. However from memory it was also more open than this and the small trees on either side were less prevalent then.
I don't know much more about the crossing nearer Mountnessing unfortunately. Never actually went that way as a kid.
There are three crossings of the A27 Chichester Bypass close to Kingsham Primary School which had a horrendous reputation. You can see one here here with a sign hastily added. They have now all been filled in, with a new footbridge provided some distance away.
Though it's easier for a pedestrian to cross here than it is for a cyclist to cross at some of the nearby single-carriageway sections. Barnards Gate is awful, and Swinbrook not much better.
trickstat wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:49
Probably the scariest of all there's a footpath about 3 miles from where I live that used to cross all 4 lines of the East Coast Main Line. About 20 years ago, my parents did a walk that included it. Thankfully they have now put in a footbridge.
I've just checked and the footpath is actually the Icknield Way which is several hundred years older than the ECML.
Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
Haha, I have wanted to cross it. As said, I was coming from the Shenfield side from Hall Wood at around seven the other morning, a runner somehow managed to cross it. I was going to cross but I hesistated and didn't want to risk it. The only viable way of getting from one side of the A12 to the other on foot from Shenfield to Pilgrims Hatch today is really just using the Hall Lane bridge, though even that isn't particuarly ideal, given most of the road up to there is unpaved, and although they have put a 30 limit for much of that road, most of it is still NSL somehow and even then cars go faster than that.
Were the provisions in place then for the road to be crossed, eg, in the central reservation?
Any idea about that second footpath? I thought it was a mistake up until today. Sure enough, on the Chelmsford Rd (A1023 side) there is a clearing to go through some brief woodland between there and the A12 to cross, and there is a gap in the central reservation. I think on the other side it takes you out to around Chainbridge Farm. That one isn't labelled at all though, and probably for good reason.
I thought the A12 back in 79' on the Brentwood section had a much wider central reservation with vegetation in it like the section at the western end near Brook street?
Now you are testing my memory! The first thing to say is that there is actually a third crossing of the A12 in this area. The Hall Wood to Pilgrims Hatch footpath splits in two on the Shenfield side and the third crossing is here. You can see the footpath sign in the bushes if you fiddle around with the view. That is near your first example and on reflection is probably where I crossed because this is the branch that leads to Hatch Lane.
I do not remember having to "zig zag" around a gap in the central reservation, from memory it was straight across. A simple gap? And yes I believe it would have been wider than currently. However from memory it was also more open than this and the small trees on either side were less prevalent then.
I don't know much more about the crossing nearer Mountnessing unfortunately. Never actually went that way as a kid.
Ah yes, yeah the other day I was with the one that requires you to go down some stairs. Interesting. The mountnessing one is not labelled at all. Interestingly, there is a subtle hint on the chelsmford road side - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.64278 ... 312!8i6656. As you can see, the cycle lane stops for a gap. Not sure if this was intentional? It is very easy to miss.
As said, I really wish they had put a footbridge over like the Weald Road one, as I'd be interested in seeign whats on the other side
I've never seen anyone trying to use either. There's plenty more around if you start looking.
...and completely unnecessary in terms of location given the proximity of the massive bridge! I've seem someone use it once, running across the road in front of me - it's just shocking design.
rhyds wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:26
The A14 has a fair few footpath crossings along its length with but a central reservation gap and a couple of warning signs. IIRC this was part of the reason that Catthorpe to J1 couldn't become a motorway.
I believe that a number were actually closed when Catthorpe was remodelled as J1 to Catthorpe now leads inescapably onto a motorway and that HE built a new footpaths on the north and south sides along with a new bridleway built alongside the Avon as it passes under the A14. You can see it on Google maps https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Big ... 6422?hl=en
There are Quite a few on the A9 Inverness stretch of dual carriageway and across the Black Isle. These have helpful "look left" painted on the road and a nice wee break in the barrier.
c2R wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 19:17
...and completely unnecessary in terms of location given the proximity of the massive bridge! I've seem someone use it once, running across the road in front of me - it's just shocking design.
Closing a public right of way across an All Purpose Road is not a simple process, look carefully and you will see several on the A1.
There is (or was - the footpath seems to have become very overgrown/obliterated after the 2015 resurfacing) one here on the A338: https://goo.gl/maps/ThaVYFo48twxU1Ew6
I presume the sign facing the footpath says something like "I'd just go back the other way if I were you"
