Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

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qwertyK
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Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

Hi there,

I think I may have posted about this a few years ago but never got any definitive answers, so I'm posting again as I've now discovered two public footpaths - one of them is even signed - that cross the A12 Brentwood Bypass.

First is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6372647 ... 312!8i6656

Second is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6432454 ... 312!8i6656

As you can see, there are clearly provisions made for someone to cross the road, as they have allowed space in the central reservation and with a barrier alongside the road.

The first footpath is publicly signed alongside the road, but the second isn't, even from the A1023 where it begins, and isn't shown on OS maps apart from this one https://footpathmap.co.uk/map/?zoom=16& ... 5722766904

I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
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trickstat
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by trickstat »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
I'm sure there will be somebody on here who knows a lot more than me about this, but I don't think that is how it tends to work. A footpath tends to be evidence of a public right of way and you can't just extinguish those. Of course there are alternatives such as diversions, footbridges and underpasses that are certainly preferable from a safety point of view.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

trickstat wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:34
qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
I'm sure there will be somebody on here who knows a lot more than me about this, but I don't think that is how it tends to work. A footpath tends to be evidence of a public right of way and you can't just extinguish those. Of course there are alternatives such as diversions, footbridges and underpasses that are certainly preferable from a safety point of view.
Definitely, I am surprised at why there are no better provisions made like a footbridge, especially given another public footpath that crosses the same road a couple of miles further down is given one
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by NICK 647063 »

The worst one I know is on the A1 near Wentbridge, it crosses on a bend in the A1 and that section is one of the busiest dual Carriageways in the uk....

Others that come to mind are the A64 between York and Tadcaster, the central barrier was renewed a few years ago and more formal crossing points were put in the central reservation, plenty of pedestrians crossing warnings but this section has seen many fatals involving pedestrians crossing over the years.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Steven »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
There's also a footpath across the M876 spur...

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trickstat
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by trickstat »

Probably the scariest of all there's a footpath about 3 miles from where I live that used to cross all 4 lines of the East Coast Main Line. About 20 years ago, my parents did a walk that included it. Thankfully they have now put in a footbridge.

I've just checked and the footpath is actually the Icknield Way which is several hundred years older than the ECML.
Last edited by trickstat on Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

There are no pedestrian warning crossing signs either. I'm considering speaking to the local council as I believe they are in charge of maintaining the footpaths. County council I think, though it might be the responsibility of HE given it crosses a trunk road
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

Congratulations!

You have discovered the highway industry's dirty (not so) little secret. We couldn't give a damn about pedestrians, cyclists or equestrians. 'If it ain't got an engine it don't count' is our motto, despite some winging about the 'cycle lobby', etc..

I give you the A303. Not the dualled bit, but still...down some steps, across essentially three lanes of trunk road traffic and up some steps. Very inclusive.

ETA - The A303 'the dualled bit'. Again, steps, gap in barrier, steps.

ETA - The scheme boundary for the A303 Sparkford to Ilchester scheme begins about 150 to 200m downstream, so while there may have been scope to do something about this if it were in the red line boundary (e.g. make a bid for designated funds) nothing will be done about this.
Last edited by Debaser on Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:29, edited 2 times in total.
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trickstat
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by trickstat »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:55 There are no pedestrian warning crossing signs either. I'm considering speaking to the local council as I believe they are in charge of maintaining the footpaths. County council I think, though it might be the responsibility of HE given it crosses a trunk road
I think the responsibility for the footpath itself would lie with Essex County Council but I suspect the signage would be HE.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Debaser »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:36
trickstat wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:34
qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
I'm sure there will be somebody on here who knows a lot more than me about this, but I don't think that is how it tends to work. A footpath tends to be evidence of a public right of way and you can't just extinguish those. Of course there are alternatives such as diversions, footbridges and underpasses that are certainly preferable from a safety point of view.
Definitely, I am surprised at why there are no better provisions made like a footbridge, especially given another public footpath that crosses the same road a couple of miles further down is given one
Structures cost money! Decent NMU infrastructure could be up to 1% or so of scheme costs (depending on the size of the scheme, obviously). Can't go spending all that on people who don't pay road tax (sic).



[In real life NMU infrastructure has been found to have very high benefit/cost ratios, significantly higher than 90-odd% of road schemes, so designers really ought to be putting proper infra in in spades. Such is still the bias against active travel - despite, as I said, what many outside the industry believe.]
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trickstat
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by trickstat »

Debaser wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:09 Congratulations!

You have discovered the highway industry's dirty (not so) little secret. We couldn't give a damn about pedestrians, cyclists or equestrians. 'If it ain't got an engine it don't count' is our motto, despite some winging about the 'cycle lobby', etc..

I give you the A303. Not the dualled bit, but still...down some steps, across essentially three lanes of trunk road traffic and up some steps. Very inclusive.
Even someone quite sprightly might have to wait 15-30 minutes to find a safe gap there at the wrong time of day.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by RichardA35 »

trickstat wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:19
Debaser wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:09 Congratulations!

You have discovered the highway industry's dirty (not so) little secret. We couldn't give a damn about pedestrians, cyclists or equestrians. 'If it ain't got an engine it don't count' is our motto, despite some winging about the 'cycle lobby', etc..

I give you the A303. Not the dualled bit, but still...down some steps, across essentially three lanes of trunk road traffic and up some steps. Very inclusive.
Even someone quite sprightly might have to wait 15-30 minutes to find a safe gap there at the wrong time of day.
I'll raise your A303 to the A13 at Basildon. Try picking your way across 65,000 vpd in 4 lanes
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Big L »

I never saw anyone attempt to cross any of the signposted crossings towards the eastern end of the A14, but I would applaud the bravery of anyone that tried.
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Alderpoint
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Alderpoint »

Quite a few of these across the A46 Warwick Bypass. Never used them myself though.
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jervi
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by jervi »

Trying to find some example on the A23. Fortunately, most of the A23 has received dualing, widening or realigning (or all three) at some point since 1990, as a result at-grade PROW crossings are rare, and seem to all be diverted to a purpose built footbridge, or bridge designed for farm traffic/access.

This is this singular one I can find though
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.95021 ... 312!8i6656
Although, it looks like only trees are crossing the road. But last time I checked they couldn't cross roads.

There are a few PROW that just seem to terminate onto the dual carriageway, with no provision to cross, where they previously crossed (or OS shows them as crossing)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.97802 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.91472 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96357 ... 312!8i6656

The A24 on the other hand, which is mostly almost entirely pre-1990s build seems to have near 0 dedicated crossings for pedestrians. But Couldn't seem to find half of the apparent crossings. However some do exist such as this one https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.00710 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by multiraider2 »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 Hi there,

I think I may have posted about this a few years ago but never got any definitive answers, so I'm posting again as I've now discovered two public footpaths - one of them is even signed - that cross the A12 Brentwood Bypass.

First is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6372647 ... 312!8i6656

Second is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6432454 ... 312!8i6656

As you can see, there are clearly provisions made for someone to cross the road, as they have allowed space in the central reservation and with a barrier alongside the road.

The first footpath is publicly signed alongside the road, but the second isn't, even from the A1023 where it begins, and isn't shown on OS maps apart from this one https://footpathmap.co.uk/map/?zoom=16& ... 5722766904

I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by Stevie D »

qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
This is where Wainwright's Coast to Coast crosses the A19: https://goo.gl/maps/rTdR4AsebgKj4KKg6

Sometimes crossing dual-carriageways can be easier than busy single-carriageways, because at least all traffic is coming from the same direction, which means it can be easier to find safe gaps, for a given level of busyness, although you do then have to do it twice, which can negate that!
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by the cheesecake man »

As noted Wentbridge is a horrendous idea.

Sheffield Parkway also has one.

I've never seen anyone trying to use either. There's plenty more around if you start looking.
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by rhyds »

Debaser wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 14:17
qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:36
trickstat wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:34

I'm sure there will be somebody on here who knows a lot more than me about this, but I don't think that is how it tends to work. A footpath tends to be evidence of a public right of way and you can't just extinguish those. Of course there are alternatives such as diversions, footbridges and underpasses that are certainly preferable from a safety point of view.
Definitely, I am surprised at why there are no better provisions made like a footbridge, especially given another public footpath that crosses the same road a couple of miles further down is given one
Structures cost money! Decent NMU infrastructure could be up to 1% or so of scheme costs (depending on the size of the scheme, obviously). Can't go spending all that on people who don't pay road tax (sic).



[In real life NMU infrastructure has been found to have very high benefit/cost ratios, significantly higher than 90-odd% of road schemes, so designers really ought to be putting proper infra in in spades. Such is still the bias against active travel - despite, as I said, what many outside the industry believe.]
Do statutory wildlife requirements count against such investment? What I mean is the wildlife mitigation (bat bridges etc.) having statutory requriements behind it mean that "has" to have money spent on it, while NMU provision is a "best effort" (i.e. "not much effort")?
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qwertyK
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Re: Public footpaths that cross dual carriageways

Post by qwertyK »

multiraider2 wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 16:01
qwertyK wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 13:26 Hi there,

I think I may have posted about this a few years ago but never got any definitive answers, so I'm posting again as I've now discovered two public footpaths - one of them is even signed - that cross the A12 Brentwood Bypass.

First is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6372647 ... 312!8i6656

Second is here - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6432454 ... 312!8i6656

As you can see, there are clearly provisions made for someone to cross the road, as they have allowed space in the central reservation and with a barrier alongside the road.

The first footpath is publicly signed alongside the road, but the second isn't, even from the A1023 where it begins, and isn't shown on OS maps apart from this one https://footpathmap.co.uk/map/?zoom=16& ... 5722766904

I saw someone actually cross the first one the other day. Has anyone else had experience of crossing such busy, and usually dangerous roads? Surely they should have been decomissioned, as I presume these footpaths predate the bypass that was built in '66?
Not only can I say I have experience of crossing such busy roads, I can say I have experience of using the very footpath to cross the A12 as used in your first example. I'm from Pilgrims Hatch originally and the footpath starts at the edge of that settlement. I crossed there with two friends, probably about 1979. We didn't do it for a lark or a dare, we were using the footpath to get somewhere and I remember waiting until it was very clear. We did cross at more than walking pace though. Traffic levels have increased since 1979 and I'm not sure I'd fancy it today. You do get platooning though and an elephant race further up the road could easily create a sizeable gap on one side at a time.
Haha, I have wanted to cross it. As said, I was coming from the Shenfield side from Hall Wood at around seven the other morning, a runner somehow managed to cross it. I was going to cross but I hesistated and didn't want to risk it. The only viable way of getting from one side of the A12 to the other on foot from Shenfield to Pilgrims Hatch today is really just using the Hall Lane bridge, though even that isn't particuarly ideal, given most of the road up to there is unpaved, and although they have put a 30 limit for much of that road, most of it is still NSL somehow and even then cars go faster than that.

Were the provisions in place then for the road to be crossed, eg, in the central reservation?

Any idea about that second footpath? I thought it was a mistake up until today. Sure enough, on the Chelmsford Rd (A1023 side) there is a clearing to go through some brief woodland between there and the A12 to cross, and there is a gap in the central reservation. I think on the other side it takes you out to around Chainbridge Farm. That one isn't labelled at all though, and probably for good reason.

I thought the A12 back in 79' on the Brentwood section had a much wider central reservation with vegetation in it like the section at the western end near Brook street?
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