Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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jervi
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Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jervi » Mon Apr 27, 2020 16:22

Just watched this video that was published in the last couple of minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU
Personally I think the solution could be 1 of 3 things (or even a combination):
1. Staggered crossroads as Tom suggested would fix the issue, and I'd say £100,000 isn't too bad for almost guaranteeing saving lives and 2 crashes a year.
2. Chicanes on the approach, while on an empty road with good visibility these may not have a large impact and may be a hazard themselves, it would be one of the cheapest options and I would think have the smallest opposition from locals or the national park. I'd think these roads are limited to 40MPH (as that's the de facto "NSL" for the New Forest National Park), so should be okay to implement them.
3. Create a new "Stop Line Camera", to capture and fine vehicles that fail to stop at the Stop Line (within reason). This would likely get opposition from everyone, but may the cheapest and most effective option. Powered by solar panels maybe?
What does everyone think about this?

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by SouthWest Philip » Mon Apr 27, 2020 16:32

Stagger the junction AND change the priority of the junction may also be an option.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Telstarbox » Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:07

This site in Cambridgeshire looks like the stagger has been introduced on a former 'straight' crossroads.

https://goo.gl/maps/mPSx2QJaTXGUhfMd8

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by StockburyRoundabout » Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:29

Telstarbox wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:07
This site in Cambridgeshire looks like the stagger has been introduced on a former 'straight' crossroads.

https://goo.gl/maps/mPSx2QJaTXGUhfMd8
That looks exactly what has happened.its clear to see where the old road ran with some road markings still in situ.
That is a viable option for staggering a crossroads provided you have the room and there is no opposition.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Al__S » Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:45

Staggered ex-cross roads are quite common

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Big L » Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:47

Telstarbox wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:07
This site in Cambridgeshire looks like the stagger has been introduced on a former 'straight' crossroads.

https://goo.gl/maps/mPSx2QJaTXGUhfMd8
Seems a popular solution in Cambs.

Here are two that I used to drive through when my brother lived around there.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by NICK 647063 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:05

I wouldn’t say 2 accidents a year is that high to be fair, although maybe considering the low traffic flows maybe it scores higher risk wise, watching the video it’s clearly marked STOP 🛑 but the first car just went straight over, clearly people think it’s so exposed by no hedges or trees they can just go for it, whereas if it had trees and hedges I guess people would actually stop.

Looks like land space isn’t an issue so maybe as suggested by others stagger the junction, also I’m not sure of the class of each roads but maybe try changing priorities to see if that helps, or physical measures to reduce the speeds of the side roads approaching the crossroads.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by KeithW » Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:12

I have seen a piece on this junction before. One thing that it mentioned as having made things worse is the thick A and B pillars on modern cars to meet modern crash test regulations. The blind spot is much larger than it was in the past. That said the driving at the junction was appalling, I was shocked how many vehicles were just blowing through the Stop signs.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by KeithW » Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:28

Big L wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 17:47

Seems a popular solution in Cambs.

Here are two that I used to drive through when my brother lived around there.
Before they out the roundabout in at Arrington for the A1198-A603 Junction it was staggered.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by DavidBrown » Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:37

One thing to bear in mind with this particular junction, and any improvements, is that it is inside the National Park, so any scheme will have to go through all sorts of red tape, I'd have thought.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by solocle » Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:49

DavidBrown wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:37
One thing to bear in mind with this particular junction, and any improvements, is that it is inside the National Park, so any scheme will have to go through all sorts of red tape, I'd have thought.
Which is ridiculous for a small bit of alignment adjustment. While it stays the way it is, lives are being lost.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by trickstat » Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:21

KeithW wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:12
I have seen a piece on this junction before. One thing that it mentioned as having made things worse is the thick A and B pillars on modern cars to meet modern crash test regulations. The blind spot is much larger than it was in the past. That said the driving at the junction was appalling, I was shocked how many vehicles were just blowing through the Stop signs.
This is very true. I will admit on a few occasions, I have almost not spotted a car on my first glance on an approach to a T-junction.

I do wonder whether the stop signs almost have a counter-intuitive affect on some drivers. In my experience, most stop signs are at locations where all but an extremely reckless driver realises that visibility is such that they will come to a stop (or slow to walking pace) regardless of signage. I suspect some drivers here see no cars and think "I don't need to stop" but they have failed to spot a bike, especially with the angle of the approach.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by trickstat » Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:47

NICK 647063 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:05
I wouldn’t say 2 accidents a year is that high to be fair, although maybe considering the low traffic flows maybe it scores higher risk wise, watching the video it’s clearly marked STOP 🛑 but the first car just went straight over, clearly people think it’s so exposed by no hedges or trees they can just go for it, whereas if it had trees and hedges I guess people would actually stop.

Looks like land space isn’t an issue so maybe as suggested by others stagger the junction, also I’m not sure of the class of each roads but maybe try changing priorities to see if that helps, or physical measures to reduce the speeds of the side roads approaching the crossroads.
I think the main problem isn't so much accident rate but that the accidents tend to involve cyclists so the chance of death or serious injury is high.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by trickstat » Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:49

DavidBrown wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:37
One thing to bear in mind with this particular junction, and any improvements, is that it is inside the National Park, so any scheme will have to go through all sorts of red tape, I'd have thought.
That is probably true, I would hope that a National Park would be wanting to make its roads safer for cyclists.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by exiled » Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:53

trickstat wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:21
KeithW wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:12
I have seen a piece on this junction before. One thing that it mentioned as having made things worse is the thick A and B pillars on modern cars to meet modern crash test regulations. The blind spot is much larger than it was in the past. That said the driving at the junction was appalling, I was shocked how many vehicles were just blowing through the Stop signs.
This is very true. I will admit on a few occasions, I have almost not spotted a car on my first glance on an approach to a T-junction.

I do wonder whether the stop signs almost have a counter-intuitive affect on some drivers. In my experience, most stop signs are at locations where all but an extremely reckless driver realises that visibility is such that they will come to a stop (or slow to walking pace) regardless of signage. I suspect some drivers here see no cars and think "I don't need to stop" but they have failed to spot a bike, especially with the angle of the approach.
Tom mentioned that the 'stop' signs are unusual in the UK, but the number of the rolling stops in the video was high.

Would even as a short term measure putting in plants on the secondary route help as it would encourage checking the priority road properly. The issue does seem to be the layout combined with the side of the road the UK drives on putting everyone in the blind spot. A few bushes might help.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by NICK 647063 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 20:38

So having watched the whole video again I would say the cheapest solution and one that’s worth trying would be to change priorities, in the video the road that has to stop seems busier than the main road through, also most cyclists seemed to be passing straight through on the main road, so as the accidents involve cyclists it would seem like a sensible solution as cyclists would hear the traffic and are more likely to give way than the current set up, I just think it’s worth a try.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by bart » Mon Apr 27, 2020 21:24

There's a STOP sign. Put a couple of speed bumps on the approach to make sure approaching cars have to reduce their speed.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Keiji » Mon Apr 27, 2020 21:43

bart wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 21:24
There's a STOP sign. Put a couple of speed bumps on the approach to make sure approaching cars have to reduce their speed.
Tom says in the video that it's not legal to install speed bumps on a road that doesn't have street lighting.

To me, the best solution would appear to be a roundabout. Like any roundabout, it'd force all traffic to slow down at the junction and look for conflicting traffic. I've not seen this idea mentioned so far.

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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by JammyDodge » Mon Apr 27, 2020 22:05

Keiji wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 21:43
bart wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 21:24
There's a STOP sign. Put a couple of speed bumps on the approach to make sure approaching cars have to reduce their speed.
Tom says in the video that it's not legal to install speed bumps on a road that doesn't have street lighting.

To me, the best solution would appear to be a roundabout. Like any roundabout, it'd force all traffic to slow down at the junction and look for conflicting traffic. I've not seen this idea mentioned so far.
While a roundabout would be desirable, it is not practical in reality. It would cost too much and take up more land than simply staggering the junction. He mentioned that just staggering the junction would cost £100,000.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by nowster » Mon Apr 27, 2020 22:15

Swapping the priorities would be easiest and cheapest fix.

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