Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Norfolktolancashire
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

trickstat wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 19:21
KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:12 I have seen a piece on this junction before. One thing that it mentioned as having made things worse is the thick A and B pillars on modern cars to meet modern crash test regulations. The blind spot is much larger than it was in the past. That said the driving at the junction was appalling, I was shocked how many vehicles were just blowing through the Stop signs.
This is very true. I will admit on a few occasions, I have almost not spotted a car on my first glance on an approach to a T-junction.

I do wonder whether the stop signs almost have a counter-intuitive affect on some drivers. In my experience, most stop signs are at locations where all but an extremely reckless driver realises that visibility is such that they will come to a stop (or slow to walking pace) regardless of signage. I suspect some drivers here see no cars and think "I don't need to stop" but they have failed to spot a bike, especially with the angle of the approach.
I found that for the first few months of driving my latest car that the blind spots from the pillars were quite large, along with massive blind spots in using the side mirrors too particularly on entering motorways.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 09:58 Maybe, just maybe, people need to retake their driving test. Or just hand their licence in if they can't (or won't) get the hang of what to do at a STOP sign...
This kind of misses the point, doesn't it?

The point is to reduce casualties, at least some of whom will have been behaving entirely responsibly and legally. The point is not to act as an exercise in testing compliance per se. If there is a problem with compliance, then you investigate what that is and address that. If I were injured by someone ignoring a stop sign at a junction with a known record of accidents and a reasonably practicable way of mitigating the risk, I'd take a dim view of any council that just bleated "it's the fault of the driver with a misplaced sense of entitlement" rather than addressing the problem.

That is entirely hypothetical btw - at any given location any solutions are going to be more or less feasible and that has to be taken into account as well. But telling people whose behaviour has backslid to pull their socks up is not an approved response to a known safety issue. It didn't work at Chernobyl (where the pool of potential sock-pullers was small and self-selected as likely to be particularly responsive to instructions for various reasons) and it won't work in 21st century traffic scenarios (where the people in question could be anyone and everyone with no particular link to the junction or its other users).
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Bryn666 »

If you have to absolutely retain the crossroads at that skew angle the other option is to introduce a pair of traffic islands on the side road. This introduces a visual clue that something is different.

See this example in France: https://goo.gl/maps/JkfHaWbTsCiLJSmk8
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by the cheesecake man »

jervi wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 16:22 3. Create a new "Stop Line Camera", to capture and fine vehicles that fail to stop at the Stop Line (within reason). This would likely get opposition from everyone, but may the cheapest and most effective option. Powered by solar panels maybe?
What does everyone think about this?
Do such things exist? How long would you need to stop for to pass? I can imagine arguments that the driver stopped for Ɛ seconds so complied with the law but the camera is incapable of detecting stops of less than 2Ɛ so the ticket isn't valid.

Equally a driver that complies with the letter of the law by stopping for 2Ɛ seconds without taking it seriously would pass but one that complies with spirit but merely slows to Ɛ mph for 10 seconds while looking thoroughly would fail.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 13:23
jervi wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 16:22 3. Create a new "Stop Line Camera", to capture and fine vehicles that fail to stop at the Stop Line (within reason). This would likely get opposition from everyone, but may the cheapest and most effective option. Powered by solar panels maybe?
What does everyone think about this?
Do such things exist? How long would you need to stop for to pass? I can imagine arguments that the driver stopped for Ɛ seconds so complied with the law but the camera is incapable of detecting stops of less than 2Ɛ so the ticket isn't valid.

Equally a driver that complies with the letter of the law by stopping for 2Ɛ seconds without taking it seriously would pass but one that complies with spirit but merely slows to Ɛ mph for 10 seconds while looking thoroughly would fail.
Such thing doesn't exist at the moment for use in the UK, it may exist and implemented elsewhere in the world though. By Within reason, I mean that using Radar, it calculates the distances that the vehicle moves in a given time frame, let's say 250ms. If in that 250ms, if the vehicle has moved more than 50cm, then the video of the offence is sent to the police (or appropriate organisation) and verified, PCN issued and 3 points. People would still be able to roll through the stop sign, but at such low speeds ( that the risk (that is shown in the video) would be practically eliminated.
Traveling 50cm in 250ms = 4.5MPH. At the end of the day, safety cameras should be used to reduce accidents and improve safety, not be used as a revenue stream
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Stevie D »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:42That's not a sight-line problem... that's a pig-ignorant driver being unable to move or turn their head a few inches. Or lift it from the padded head-rest.

Which is why, at a STOP sign, you are required to STOP, check the road ahead and to each side, and only then proceed.

Even at a GIVE WAY you are required to check that the road is clear before proceeding... a glance out of the corner of the eye is not enough.
Most of the drivers here probably think they have checked the road is clear – they've looked to the right and left and seen that there is nothing coming. It is all very well saying that drivers should do this, that or the other, but when we have clear evidence that a significant number of drivers aren't following the rules and what we can do to make sure that they do.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 13:23 Do such things exist? How long would you need to stop for to pass? I can imagine arguments that the driver stopped for Ɛ seconds so complied with the law but the camera is incapable of detecting stops of less than 2Ɛ so the ticket isn't valid.

Equally a driver that complies with the letter of the law by stopping for 2Ɛ seconds without taking it seriously would pass but one that complies with spirit but merely slows to Ɛ mph for 10 seconds while looking thoroughly would fail.
They do and are in use in the USA where they use many more stop signs than we do, they are less than popular. The rule in the USA is that you have to come to a full stop. I dont advocate them as it just becomes a matter of routine.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Glom »

Apologies to the mods for my attempt to double post this.

Surely, measure the speed within the last five meters before the stop line. If it's above 10mph, they're clearly going too fast. Even if this time of enforcement only gets them to slow down to a crawl as they cross the stop line, that's still a huge improvement on the abominable behaviour we see in the video.

What is the penalty for not respecting the stop line? I would hope it equivalent to running a red light.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jedikiah »

It is I believe the same - 3 penalty points and fine up to £1000.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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It may not be practical to have a stop line camera for the same reasons other measures aren't an option - need of a power supply. However it is very likely that the majority of the failures to stop are locals very familiar with the junction. So while the council are being cajoled into doing something permanent I'd just see if regular random spot-checks wouldn't concentrate the minds of the careless. You could argue that first car was guilty of dangerous driving.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Barkstar wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 00:48 It may not be practical to have a stop line camera for the same reasons other measures aren't an option - need of a power supply. However it is very likely that the majority of the failures to stop are locals very familiar with the junction. So while the council are being cajoled into doing something permanent I'd just see if regular random spot-checks wouldn't concentrate the minds of the careless. You could argue that first car was guilty of dangerous driving.
By having "spot checks", people would know when they have to obey the signs, so you wouldn't stop everyone of course you would catch a few people though. and those who you do catch who clearly weren't even paying attention to see an enforcement van/car.

Using solar and an internal battery, the camera could be on for let's say 20-30 minutes a day. No one knows when it is active, or when it is off, so everyone would treat it as if it was active to avoid 3 points and a PCN. Within a couple of weeks, all the locals will know someone who's been caught, even if themselves have got away with it.
Something like 66% of speed camera are "on" in the UK, with some police forces reporting less than 10% being "on", however I'm pretty sure everyone treats them as working, regardless.
I do condemn the actions of that first car heavily, however maybe that car is a local, and is aware 100% of the types of accidents here and how to avoid them and did check, did move their head and had 0% chance of having an accident and was driving safely (although illegally).
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Glom wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 21:55 Apologies to the mods for my attempt to double post this.

Surely, measure the speed within the last five meters before the stop line. If it's above 10mph, they're clearly going too fast. Even if this time of enforcement only gets them to slow down to a crawl as they cross the stop line, that's still a huge improvement on the abominable behaviour we see in the video.

What is the penalty for not respecting the stop line? I would hope it equivalent to running a red light.

Sorry but for obvious reasons you cannot impose a 10 mph speed limit however there are cameras designed to run off grid, there are a number in US State Parks, lots of them in California.
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/los- ... ons/24638/

That said there may be legal issues enforcing them in the UK. What they are doing in California is issuing a penalty charge under State Park Regulations rather than State Traffic Law where running a Stop Sign can get you 4 demerits (points) on your license.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Bertiebus wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 13:36 He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
Not wannabe. He's been on TV: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadget_Geeks
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Bertiebus wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 13:36 He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
alternatively, he's a reasonably successful YouTuber, which is a thing these days, who does well out of his own channel and doing videos and series for organisations.

Mindyou, back when he was merely disrupting student politics and posting on b3ta.com his forum handle was "tedious".

He gave himself that name, so make of it what you will.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Bertiebus wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 13:36 He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
Tom's channel is one of my favourites to watch. Why waste an hour watching an official documentary on a topic, complete with advert breaks and endless recaps when you can watch Tom cover the same topic, in the same level of detail but within a five minute window?
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Bertiebus wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 13:36 He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
Amongst the other issues raised here, it's also worth remembering that a successful YouTube user can make more money and receive more views than the equivalent TV presenter. 1.1 million people have watched that video so far, and you wouldn't get that kind-of viewing figure with a documentary about a crossroads on Channel Five.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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jervi wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 01:28
Barkstar wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 00:48 It may not be practical to have a stop line camera for the same reasons other measures aren't an option - need of a power supply. However it is very likely that the majority of the failures to stop are locals very familiar with the junction. So while the council are being cajoled into doing something permanent I'd just see if regular random spot-checks wouldn't concentrate the minds of the careless. You could argue that first car was guilty of dangerous driving.
By having "spot checks", people would know when they have to obey the signs, so you wouldn't stop everyone of course you would catch a few people though. and those who you do catch who clearly weren't even paying attention to see an enforcement van/car.

Using solar and an internal battery, the camera could be on for let's say 20-30 minutes a day. No one knows when it is active, or when it is off, so everyone would treat it as if it was active to avoid 3 points and a PCN. Within a couple of weeks, all the locals will know someone who's been caught, even if themselves have got away with it.
Something like 66% of speed camera are "on" in the UK, with some police forces reporting less than 10% being "on", however I'm pretty sure everyone treats them as working, regardless.
I do condemn the actions of that first car heavily, however maybe that car is a local, and is aware 100% of the types of accidents here and how to avoid them and did check, did move their head and had 0% chance of having an accident and was driving safely (although illegally).
Having a vehicle to watch the junction isn't ideal and I doubt you'd get the cops to hide in a gorse bush. There maybe solar powered cameras but are they certified for use here and would the council allow one anyway. Good if it was possible. I imaging rumble strips or a short section of cobbles have been discarded as an idea because of the noise? What about narrowing the road to one lane on approach with priority to vehicles coming off the mainline?
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jervi »

Barkstar wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 17:41 Having a vehicle to watch the junction isn't ideal and I doubt you'd get the cops to hide in a gorse bush. There maybe solar powered cameras but are they certified for use here and would the council allow one anyway. Good if it was possible. I imaging rumble strips or a short section of cobbles have been discarded as an idea because of the noise? What about narrowing the road to one lane on approach with priority to vehicles coming off the mainline?
Not sure about the legality of using cameras for enforcement of stop lines, I'd imagine it doesn't have to be a "certified" camera, like speed cameras since it would just take a video of the stop order being neglected. I'd think anyone standing on that corner with a camera video people breaking the order and sending it to the appropriate police department is enough for a least a warning letter.
Rumble strips as you said is out of the question due to noise, but that being said cattle grids make more noise (although there isn't really an alternative for those).
The issue of narrowing to a single lane with with priority to vehicles coming off the mainline would make it more confusing (how can you mark priority and also a stop in close succession. Also adds to the signage, plus what if a vehicle is blocking someone coming off the mainline, then get a rear-ended. My second suggestion if a chicane, or even a double chicane. If placed effectively they could make it difficult for drivers to pass through quicker than 15MPH
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by ScottyW »

Bertiebus wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 13:36 He's rather self-important, isn't he? Like a wannabe television reporter whose lack of a pomposity filter meant he only ever got as far as YouTube. :)
Nope. You've judged someone you don't know on one video.

He's done lectures for the Royal Institute - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leX541Dr2rU

He also has a group of friends he does fun (and unique) gameshows with on Youtube.
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