Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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WHBM
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by WHBM »

4-way stop.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Al__S »

the 100k for staggering the junction does seem quite cheap, to those of us used to how much road features cost. It really seems to the obvious thing- clearly the Stop signs aren't effective.

Reversing the priorities wouldn't work, you would still have all the same angles and speeds involved, just rotated. Traffic lights requires a power supply, a roundabout would be £1million+ with huge land take involved.

Staggering the junction would be more or less land-neutral and would absolutely solve the constant bearing, constant speed/blind spot problem.

One issue is that the locals (especially councillors) who would object to any serious works are known, as a mass, to be especially hostile to people on bikes and hence the idea of a safety improvement to stop killing cyclists whilst making them slow down slightly whilst driving would likely go down poorly
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Richard_Fairhurst
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Richard_Fairhurst »

Swap the priorities and close the southbound road to motor traffic, sending through traffic via the B3054 and A326 instead. It's a one-minute difference in driving time according to Google Maps' estimates. Put some form of barrier (bollards, signs, an earth bank) across the southbound road with a gap in for non-motorised users.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Maybe, just maybe, people need to retake their driving test. Or just hand their licence in if they can't (or won't) get the hang of what to do at a STOP sign...
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 09:58 Maybe, just maybe, people need to retake their driving test. Or just hand their licence in if they can't (or won't) get the hang of what to do at a STOP sign...
I suppose one problem is that STOP signs are so rare that most test centres probably don't have one anywhere near them.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Bryn666 »

WHBM wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 22:554-way stop.
Not lawful, and people are ignoring the existing Stop signs anyway so what is the point?
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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trickstat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:10
Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 09:58 Maybe, just maybe, people need to retake their driving test. Or just hand their licence in if they can't (or won't) get the hang of what to do at a STOP sign...
I suppose one problem is that STOP signs are so rare that most test centres probably don't have one anywhere near them.
Not an excuse. They should at the very least know what it means.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:13
trickstat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:10
Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 09:58 Maybe, just maybe, people need to retake their driving test. Or just hand their licence in if they can't (or won't) get the hang of what to do at a STOP sign...
I suppose one problem is that STOP signs are so rare that most test centres probably don't have one anywhere near them.
Not an excuse. They should at the very least know what it means.
Yes if you don't know what it means your English language skills are insufficient to have a licence and there's no way you'd pass the theory test.

The driving test includes some more complex manoeuvres than stopping before a white line and pulling away when safe.

Maybe giving fuller explanations as to the reasons why a stop sign might be installed would be helpful.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

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trickstat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:23
Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:13
trickstat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:10

I suppose one problem is that STOP signs are so rare that most test centres probably don't have one anywhere near them.
Not an excuse. They should at the very least know what it means.
Yes if you don't know what it means your English language skills are insufficient to have a licence and there's no way you'd pass the theory test.

The driving test includes some more complex manoeuvres than stopping before a white line and pulling away when safe.

Maybe giving fuller explanations as to the reasons why a stop sign might be installed would be helpful.
Red octagonal signs with the word STOP written across them (or a Latin American equivalent) are used around the planet and in popular culture. If you still haven't worked out what action to take on encountering that sign, there's something seriously wrong.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jedikiah »

Stop signs aren't that rare at crossroads and t-junctions where there are obvious sight issues; I can think of at least three less than a mile from where I am now and are obeyed because their reason is obvious. The deception that the sight lines actually appear clear here seems to be fooling way too many drivers' autopilot perception of the risk with some barely slowing down at all. I'd speculate that many of those more or less completely ignoring the Stop sign are regular users of the road too.

The Stop sign has a 100 yard warning before it, with Slow painted on the road right there. I see that the previous Give Way sign from Streetview was stupidly partially obscured by the back of a width restriction sign that was erected sometime in 2011-2 which has been put back to being attached behind the Stop sign rather than a separate pole.

Eventually though there is only so much you can do with pots of paint and road signs.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Micro The Maniac »

It would appear that the STOP signs are only a few years old... previously it was a shockingly sited GIVE WAY

https://goo.gl/maps/q1z2ivc6ELKioi2K9


Edit: Beaten to it by a moment!
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Micro The Maniac »

jedikiah wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:31 Stop signs aren't that rare at crossroads and t-junctions where there are obvious sight issues
Yes... but there are no sight-line problems here - this is purely down to driver error.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the junction... just the inability of drivers to follow the Rules of the road.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jedikiah »

Yes it is really bad - and odd too as it was originally fixed to the back of the same pole as the Give Way sign.

The pole too seems to change a couple of times before the current thicker one was used which leads to the suggests that it was knocked down on occasion by someone taking late evasive action.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by jedikiah »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:38
jedikiah wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:31 Stop signs aren't that rare at crossroads and t-junctions where there are obvious sight issues
Yes... but there are no sight-line problems here - this is purely down to driver error.
There are sight-line problems here as shown by the animation in the video. Just not obvious ones. That is why the Stop sign is there (now).
Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the junction... just the inability of drivers to follow the Rules of the road.
Why aren't they following them here then?
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Arcuarius
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Arcuarius »

jedikiah wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:49Why aren't they following them then?
Because they're entitled and inattentive idiots that think they know better? Just a hunch.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by trickstat »

Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:08
trickstat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:23
Arcuarius wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:13
Not an excuse. They should at the very least know what it means.
Yes if you don't know what it means your English language skills are insufficient to have a licence and there's no way you'd pass the theory test.

The driving test includes some more complex manoeuvres than stopping before a white line and pulling away when safe.

Maybe giving fuller explanations as to the reasons why a stop sign might be installed would be helpful.
Red octagonal signs with the word STOP written across them (or a Latin American equivalent) are used around the planet and in popular culture. If you still haven't worked out what action to take on encountering that sign, there's something seriously wrong.
I don't think this is an issue of drivers not actually understanding what a STOP sign means. It is more an issue of a blase approach to these ones by drivers who do not seem to realise why this particular junction has them. This is a little bit like a road with a speed limit that drivers perceive to be too low and is generally unenforced, after a while they tend to just ignore it.

Maybe in the days when there were more patrol cars, perhaps occasionally having one within sight of the junction pulling over offenders might help reduce the problem? This is if it tends to be locals that are doing it.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Stevie D »

WHBM wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 22:554-way stop.
When the problem is now that drivers aren't obeying the STOP signs, a 4-way stop wouldn't do anything more to make them stop, even if it was legal to be used in the UK, which it isn't. The only benefit could be in making cyclists on the main road stop, thereby wasting their momentum.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:38
jedikiah wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:31 Stop signs aren't that rare at crossroads and t-junctions where there are obvious sight issues
Yes... but there are no sight-line problems here - this is purely down to driver error.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the junction... just the inability of drivers to follow the Rules of the road.
There is a sightline problem, due to the angles a cyclist on the main road remains in the car driver's blind spot from its windscreen pillar - and the car remains "behind" the cyclist.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Debaser »

NICK 647063 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 18:05 I wouldn’t say 2 accidents a year is that high to be fair, although maybe considering the low traffic flows maybe it scores higher risk wise, watching the video it’s clearly marked STOP 🛑 but the first car just went straight over, clearly people think it’s so exposed by no hedges or trees they can just go for it, whereas if it had trees and hedges I guess people would actually stop.
Crashmap shows 6 slight and 6 serious injury collisions at this crossroads in the most recent 5 years. Of these, 1 of the slight and 5 of the serious injury collisions involved cyclists.

This is the original article by 'Bez' referred to in the video.

ETA just a reminder that the definition of a serious injury collision is; An injury for which a person is detained in hospital as an “in-patient”, or any of the following injuries whether or not they are detained in hospital: fractures, concussion, internal injuries, crushings, burns (excluding friction burns), severe cuts, severe general shock requiring medical treatment and injuries causing death 30 or more days after the accident.
Last edited by Debaser on Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Britain's Most Dangerous Crossroads - Tom Scott

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:17 There is a sightline problem, due to the angles a cyclist on the main road remains in the car driver's blind spot from its windscreen pillar - and the car remains "behind" the cyclist.
That's not a sight-line problem... that's a pig-ignorant driver being unable to move or turn their head a few inches. Or lift it from the padded head-rest.

Which is why, at a STOP sign, you are required to STOP, check the road ahead and to each side, and only then proceed.

Even at a GIVE WAY you are required to check that the road is clear before proceeding... a glance out of the corner of the eye is not enough.
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