Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

M5Lenzar wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 08:56 The A303 is usually busy only during the warmer holiday periods.
Except around Stonehenge. When I commuted (not every day, thankfully!) Yeovil to Oxford it was blocked there every single morning that I travelled.

However, the point remains that converting it to a motorway is expensive and pointless. Just carry on building the bypasses, esp at Stonehenge.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by skiddaw05 »

With reference to giving a new expressway the A30 number, I'm not sure it would make sense to allocate the A303 number to all of the existing A30.

So in the absence of something better to do I came up with a fantasy renumbering of the existing A30, trying to make use of some redundant numbers:

A303/A34 junction to Lopcombe Corner (A343 junction) renumbered A3053

A343 number extended from Lopcombe junction to Salisbury

Salisbury to Yeovil renumbered A364, continuing to (what would be) the A30 along the A3088

Yeovil to existing A303/A30 junction renumbered A3088

Assuming the (new) A30 is routed along the A358 then the A303 number is retained from Ilminster to the existing A30 junction and continues along the existing A30 to Honiton

Honiton to Exeter renumbered A35
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

I just don't get this forum's obsession with renumbering. Why does it matter?

If you want to (say) go to the cost, inconvenience and confusion of swapping numbers between the A30 and A303, maybe try to come up with a rationale? One better than "seems neater"?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by skiddaw05 »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 01:28 I just don't get this forum's obsession with renumbering. Why does it matter?

If you want to (say) go to the cost, inconvenience and confusion of swapping numbers between the A30 and A303, maybe try to come up with a rationale? One better than "seems neater"?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Chris5156 »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 01:28I just don't get this forum's obsession with renumbering. Why does it matter?

If you want to (say) go to the cost, inconvenience and confusion of swapping numbers between the A30 and A303, maybe try to come up with a rationale? One better than "seems neater"?
You have to remember that there's a certain type of person who likes to collect every single example of something and then put it neatly in order. Trainspotters collect locomotive numbers in little books, stamp collectors paste stamps into their scrapbooks, and there are people in the world who can name every member of every team, and recite the score at every match, from the 1963 football season.

SABRE, of course, is home to the branch of that obsessive collecting mentality that specialises in roads. So we are stuffed full of people who want to know where every road number goes, and where it used to go, and what system is used to put them neatly in order, and once that's established, how to rearrange the numbers so they fit more neatly in with the system. People of that mindset love a system. But unlike peeling stamps and rearranging them on the page, or making a new list of locomotives in numerical order, we can't actually tidy up the road numbers and make them neat and orderly, so instead we end up imagining what we'd do if we could.

At least, that's how I've always thought of it!
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Herned »

M5Lenzar wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 08:56 The A303 is usually busy only during the warmer holiday periods.
No it isn't. That is not my experience of 30 years of driving along it, up to daily. It is very common for it to seem free flowing and even quiet and then to come across half-mile or worse queues at the end of each dual carriageway section.

There is no rationale whatsoever to make it a motorway though, it just needs dualling to be complete. As it is a very well known number what possible benefit would there be to change it?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by SteveA30 »

If it was going to change, it should have been in 1958(?), when the A303 became the preferred route west. Moving A30 to that route would have given one trunk road number from A4 to Penzance. However, since 1971, Bagshot to Popham was made redundant by the new M3, losing the continuity, and tidying up the little bit of trunk A30 from there to Micheldever by extending the A303 to the M3 made sense. (although it was about 15 years after the M3 opened).
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by A303Chris »

There have been various comments about the A358 / A303 upgrades but the traffic volumes between Ilminster and Honiton through the Blackdown Hills do not warrant an upgrade. The road only takes 11,552 vehicles a day between Ilminster and the A30 TOTSO with the A30 increasing to 14,500 to Honiton. The A30 between the A303 and Chard only takes 3,200 vehicles per day. From the A35 which has 8,250 vehicles west of Honition, the A30 has 21,200 vehicles per day to the M5.

The A303 Iliminster bypass has 22,561 vehicles per day, while the A358 through Henlade has 23,789. At Wincanton the A303 is back down to 16,000 vehicles a day. The A358/A303/A3088 is the a major cross Somerset route between the two largest towns in the county Yeovil and Taunton, so given the flows upgrading this makes sense.

Apart from 7 summer weekends, Easter and Whitsun, I have never been held up through the Blackdown Hills, yes may have to slow down behind a HGV, but the distance saved 13 miles makes up going to Taunton. Devon CC's plans for a SC upgrade along the A30 from the A303 to the A35, with crawler lanes makes sense. The volumes along the road do not warrant a massive upgrade.

Once Stonehenge and Sparkford are completed I am looking at a total of 24 miles of SC between Exeter and the M25, which will be reduced to 15 miles when Chicklade is done.

We have to think of the environment and destroying the Blackdown Hills and AONB for just 11,500 vehicles per day which is within the capacity of a two lane SC road, is not going to happen. There are much busier roads which need upgrades more urgently
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by ManomayLR »

I think you know what I'm going to say - what's the point of bypasses if a motorway route can be built?

Taking the M4/M5 is a perfectly viable motorway route to Devon and Cornwall from London. And we have used it time and time again. But when there's congestion/closure/accident, then we get forced to choose between squeezing past Stonehenge on the S2 stretches until we reach the M3, or just putting up with whatever comes our way on the motorway.

Personally, the A303 needs dualling AND motorway-status between the M3 and Exeter. If it's a high-quality smart motorway route, it will be able to actively manage long distance and tourist traffic. Lane control on gantries will manage the tunnel sections near Stonehenge, as well as lane control on verge MS4s elsewhere.

The M3 can branch off to the M30 marked as THE SOUTH WEST, Devon or another long-distance marker at the junction.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Herned »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 17:31 I think you know what I'm going to say - what's the point of bypasses if a motorway route can be built?
~75% of the A303 is already dualled between the A358 and the M3. Lots of it goes through fairly remote areas (for Southern England), where it is the only route that all traffic can use. So you are going to need to build lots and lots of bridges and miles and miles of LAR. I imagine the BCR for doing so would be minuscule. What actual tangible benefit would making it into a motorway be, compared to dualling, GSJ'ing the rest of the roundabouts and closing the handful of remaining central reserve gaps?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 17:31 I think you know what I'm going to say - what's the point of bypasses if a motorway route can be built?
In the real world we do not have an unlimited pot of money for building motorways or the free space to put them all.

Some years ago both Papworth Everard and Caxton got a bypass which made a huge difference for the people who lived there, There was not a snowballs chance in the hell that the A1198 would be upgraded to a motorway. Close to my home Nunthorpe got a bypass, I dont see the A1043 as motorway material somehow but its a pretty decent S2 bypass.

Its much better to have the traffic here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52209 ... 312!8i6656

than here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52765 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 17:31 I think you know what I'm going to say - what's the point of bypasses if a motorway route can be built?
In the real world we do not have an unlimited pot of money for building motorways or the free space to put them all.

Some years ago both Papworth Everard and Caxton got a bypass which made a huge difference for the people who lived there, There was not a snowballs chance in the hell that the A1198 would be upgraded to a motorway. Close to my home Nunthorpe got a bypass, I dont see the A1043 as motorway material somehow but its a pretty decent S2 bypass.

Its much better to have the traffic here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52209 ... 312!8i6656

than here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52765 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Micro The Maniac »

I was with you most of the way, in this fantasy game...
skiddaw05 wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 00:00 With reference to giving a new expressway the A30 number, I'm not sure it would make sense to allocate the A303 number to all of the existing A30.

So in the absence of something better to do I came up with a fantasy renumbering of the existing A30, trying to make use of some redundant numbers:
  • A303/A34 junction to Lopcombe Corner (A343 junction) renumbered A3053 MtM: I guess it's as good a new number as any...
  • A343 number extended from Lopcombe junction to Salisbury MtM: Agreed... it's obvious (given that's how it used to be), and frankly should happen anyway
  • Salisbury to Yeovil renumbered A364 MtM: Or keep with A343?
  • Yeovil to existing A303/A30 junction renumbered A3088 MtM: this leads to an interesting multidimensional A3088 at Yeovil? But maybe OK
  • Assuming the (new) A30 is routed along the A358 then the A303 number is retained from Ilminster to the existing A30 junction and continues along the existing A30 to Honiton Much better to leave the A358 as it is - after all, there's still the southern bit to retain A358 anyway - and the A30 continuing with whatever number the last bit has, and the A303 becoming the A30
  • Honiton to Exeter renumbered A35 MtM: Leave it as A30(3)
Rerouting the (new) A30 over the A358 means yet another gap in the A30...


BTW, you missed the small bit from Winchester Road (near M3/J7) to the A33 fork... but this bit is crying out to be A33 anyway (unwinding the multiplex) with Stockbridge Road being recognised as "just" the A303/A30 slip-road that it is.

Edit: deleted some utter guff I posted last night!
Last edited by Micro The Maniac on Tue Jun 30, 2020 07:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Micro The Maniac »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 17:31 Taking the M4/M5 is a perfectly viable motorway route to Devon and Cornwall from London.
Which is all well and good if you are starting in London.

If you are starting at (eg) Basingstoke or Southampton it's not a very useful route.

After many years of experimenting, I'm still trying to work out the best route from Farnborough/Basingstoke to the M4 (for Bristol and South Wales)...
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by ManomayLR »

KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 20:26 Its much better to have the traffic here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52209 ... 312!8i6656

than here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52765 ... 384!8i8192
Well obviously, the second one has a level crossing in the way!
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Vierwielen »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 20:58
EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 17:31 Taking the M4/M5 is a perfectly viable motorway route to Devon and Cornwall from London.
Which is all well and good if you are starting in London.

If you are starting at (eg) Basingstoke or Southampton it's not a very useful route.

After many years of experimenting, I'm still trying to work out the best route from Farnborough/Basingstoke to the M4 (for Bristol and South Wales)...
From Farnborough, I would recommend picking up the A329(M), the exact route depending on where you start in Farnborough. From Fleet, I would recommend going via Hartley WIntney to M4:J11 and from Basingstoke, I would use the A339 and A34 past (or through) Newbury to M4:J13.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Scratchwood »

A303Chris wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 15:11 There have been various comments about the A358 / A303 upgrades but the traffic volumes between Ilminster and Honiton through the Blackdown Hills do not warrant an upgrade. The road only takes 11,552 vehicles a day between Ilminster and the A30 TOTSO with the A30 increasing to 14,500 to Honiton. The A30 between the A303 and Chard only takes 3,200 vehicles per day. From the A35 which has 8,250 vehicles west of Honition, the A30 has 21,200 vehicles per day to the M5.

The A303 Iliminster bypass has 22,561 vehicles per day, while the A358 through Henlade has 23,789. At Wincanton the A303 is back down to 16,000 vehicles a day. The A358/A303/A3088 is the a major cross Somerset route between the two largest towns in the county Yeovil and Taunton, so given the flows upgrading this makes sense.

Apart from 7 summer weekends, Easter and Whitsun, I have never been held up through the Blackdown Hills, yes may have to slow down behind a HGV, but the distance saved 13 miles makes up going to Taunton. Devon CC's plans for a SC upgrade along the A30 from the A303 to the A35, with crawler lanes makes sense. The volumes along the road do not warrant a massive upgrade.

Once Stonehenge and Sparkford are completed I am looking at a total of 24 miles of SC between Exeter and the M25, which will be reduced to 15 miles when Chicklade is done.

We have to think of the environment and destroying the Blackdown Hills and AONB for just 11,500 vehicles per day which is within the capacity of a two lane SC road, is not going to happen. There are much busier roads which need upgrades more urgently
Personally, I enjoy the Blackdown section, and can't see myself taking the A358/M5 option unless I know in advance of serious disruption

Is there any way of alleviating the worst bits of it, e.g. the 90 degree bend by relocating the road slightly and then digging up the old one? It would be nice if other sections of the A303 could be slightly wider SC roads as well.
Last edited by Scratchwood on Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 09:27You have to remember that there's a certain type of person who likes to collect every single example of something and then put it neatly in order. Trainspotters collect locomotive numbers in little books...
Well, I'm into railways too...

The closest analogy I can think of would be the RailUKForums constantly going on about the Class 50s being in the wrong "sector" of the TOPS numbering system cos they were Type 4s. Even the railway people don't get that picky about things :)
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 22:44 From Farnborough, I would recommend picking up the A329(M), the exact route depending on where you start in Farnborough. From Fleet, I would recommend going via Hartley WIntney to M4:J11 and from Basingstoke, I would use the A339 and A34 past (or through) Newbury to M4:J13.
Thanks... yes, that's typically what I do, although heading east[3] along the A3095[1][2] to head west seems wrong, but A30/B3011 (or even B3349) is such a poor route up to the A33, even before you get to the abortion that is J11. And the A339 is another road that could do with improving. It's use as a diversionary route during the M4 closures shows its wider importance

Footnotes:
  1. Of course, with the A3095 closed at Bracknell for three months that route is not an option, directly, although local-knowledge does provide viable bypasses
  2. Why the A331 morphs into the A3095, I'll never understand, even allowing for the mile of A321 in between... likewise, why the A331 is the A331 and not A321 (which it superseded) is another of those conundrums. It reeks of "typo".
  3. ETA: Actually, it's more north than east but it just feels wrong :roll:
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by KeithW »

EpicChef wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 22:18
KeithW wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 20:26 Its much better to have the traffic here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52209 ... 312!8i6656

than here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.52765 ... 384!8i8192
Well obviously, the second one has a level crossing in the way!
Which sees 4 trains a day unless the NYMR is running a special , I have seen The Flying Scotsman run through it, there was quite a crowd,
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/tees ... s-11022369

The real concern was that the traffic made the centre of the village a dangerous place for pedestrians not to mention the noise and air pollution it brought.
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