Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Richardf »

Providing a LAR for A303 motorway/Expressway upgrade might not be as difficult or expensive as you think. There are quite a few stretches where the road has been upgraded offline and the old road still exists, if only as a farm track. It would not be too difficult to bring some of those back into use as LARs with maybe short sections of newbuild road to connect them up. Plus of course there are the bypassed sections through towns and villages that would serve non motorway traffic perfecty wel too.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by mistral »

Herned wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 09:31
M5Lenzar wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 08:56The A303 is usually busy only during the warmer holiday periods.
No it isn't. That is not my experience of 30 years of driving along it, up to daily. It is very common for it to seem free flowing and even quiet and then to come across half-mile or worse queues at the end of each dual carriageway section.
I couldn’t agree more.

Several years ago, I had a discussion with Guy about the possibility of building a decent road from Popham to the M5 at Exeter.
In March 2009, mistral wrote:
In March 2002, replying to Guy, mistral wrote:I have the dubious pleasure of doing about 3 return trips a year along the 303. It should definitely be a motorway. It was a completely inadequate road to handle all the traffic running along it 20 years ago and nothing major has changed in that time. The dual carriageway sections are often reminiscent of the old A74; lovely on a bright summer's day but treacherous on a dark, wet night when you can't do more than 45 or 50 mph with any degree of safety. It has some very dangerous intersections on both the single and dual carriageway sections which could and should have been improved years ago. I had the dubious pleasure of being stuck behind a tractor on the Fonthill to Mere section last April, and it was so busy coming the other way that no one could get past. 7 miles at 20 mph on the main road from London to the South West is not on. (I thought I was on the M6 in Birmingham!!) So, on this one,we'll have to agree to disagree. The 303 is a great driving road if the weather and traffic conditions are spot on, but the rest of the time, I'd like the M3 or a direct train from Woking to Padstow!! (Yes, reopen the line to Padstow!!)
Seven years on, my views haven't really changed that much WRT this road. It still needs fixing.
18 years on from the original post, and 45 years on from the first time that I thought the 303 needed fixing, one does begin to wonder why so little has been done to sort this road out over the past few decades?? At the very least, the section by the Marsh Curve should have been straightened out when Abba were at the top of the charts!!
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Peter350 »

Regarding the dualling of the A358 between Taunton and Southfields, I wonder if the primary reason for HE leaving out free-flow links to the M5(S) is on the grounds that any traffic heading to Exeter and beyond would only make up a very small proportion of total traffic on that route. Most of it would be Yeovil - Taunton commuters while Exeter traffic is likely to remain on the A303 Blackdown Hills route even if there was a dualled alternative, because it goes the long way round.

With that in mind, I also wonder if HE are eventually intending to dual the Blackdown Hills A303 some years down the line, and are leaving out free flow A358-M5 links on the grounds that they may become redundant in 20-30 years time.

At least with the current proposal, people will have a choice whether to opt for a longer but faster and fully dualled route, or a direct route which is slower but devoid of traffic. I expect that most HGVs will divert to the A358/M5, while holiday traffic will stick with the A303, so it evens the load out a bit on both routes.
Last edited by Peter350 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Herned »

Peter350 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:37 Regarding the dualling if the A358 between Taunton and Southfields, I wonder if the primary reason for HE leaving out free-flow links to the M5(S) is on the grounds that any traffic heading to Exeter and beyond would only make up a very small proportion of total traffic on that route... and are leaving out free flow A358-M5 links on the grounds that they may become redundant in 20-30 years time.
All the original proposals avoided J25 or had free flow links to the M5 south. The scheme was cut back to only link to J25 because of the construction cost escalating. So now all the traffic will be on the roundabout at J25 which will be over-capacity from day 1, according to HE's own reports.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by M5Lenzar »

Herned wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 So now all the traffic will be on the roundabout at J25 which will be over-capacity from day 1, according to HE's own reports.
That is an absolutely brainless decision. J25 is very busy even WITHOUT all the A303 traffic, what with being Taunton's main link to the M5 and the rest of the country.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by A320Driver »

I’m afraid the horse has bolted wrt the Blackdowns section. The choice was available 20 years ago, HE selected the A358 and as a result I cannot see the Blackdowns being upgraded in the next 20, if not ever. A shame but there you go. I was interested to see above that the traffic levels really do fall away past Ilminster so I can see HE’s view.

With regards to the A358, a decent scheme botched as usual by crap junctions at either end, although Southfields may be upgraded with the Ilminster bypass scheme. Maybe the curve from A303-A358 can be smoothed out in the process.

Again a shame that free flow isn’t provided, as otherwise it would have meant uninterrupted carriageway (99% D2) from South Petherton to Hayle in Cornwall (once the A30 upgrade in Cornwall is complete, which it will be by the time the A358 is).
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Richardf »

The lack of improved junctions at either end of the A358 upgrade is disapointing but not entirely surprising. I suppose there is a chance of something being done to either or both at a later date and under a different budget. Not sure what could be done to expand or improve J25 at Taunton other than building the freeflow links as originally planned. Maybe a new junction for local traffic is a possible solution? Certainly needs something or that area will be a total no go and all the benefits of upgraing the A358 will be lost.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Herned »

Richardf wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:23 The lack of improved junctions at either end of the A358 upgrade is disapointing but not entirely surprising. I suppose there is a chance of something being done to either or both at a later date and under a different budget. Not sure what could be done to expand or improve J25 at Taunton other than building the freeflow links as originally planned. Maybe a new junction for local traffic is a possible solution? Certainly needs something or that area will be a total no go and all the benefits of upgraing the A358 will be lost.
I did reply to the consultation saying that I hope the route would be built in such a way that the links can be added later, and that land would be safeguarded.

East/north facing slip roads where the A361 crosses the M5 would be useful IMHO, the problem with J25 is the amount of other development nearby (as with many, many other motorway junctions of course!)
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Patrick Harper »

The A358 kinda oughta have a route that meets the M5 near Shoreditch. Some decent countryside in the way though.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Peter350 »

Patrick Harper wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 The A358 kinda oughta have a route that meets the M5 near Shoreditch. Some decent countryside in the way though.
On a slight tangent, I think what is also needed is a new junction on the M5 for Taunton north of J25.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Uncle Buck »

mistral wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 06:42
Herned wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 09:31
M5Lenzar wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 08:56The A303 is usually busy only during the warmer holiday periods.
No it isn't. That is not my experience of 30 years of driving along it, up to daily. It is very common for it to seem free flowing and even quiet and then to come across half-mile or worse queues at the end of each dual carriageway section.
I couldn’t agree more.

Several years ago, I had a discussion with Guy about the possibility of building a decent road from Popham to the M5 at Exeter.
In March 2009, mistral wrote:
In March 2002, replying to Guy, mistral wrote:I have the dubious pleasure of doing about 3 return trips a year along the 303. It should definitely be a motorway. It was a completely inadequate road to handle all the traffic running along it 20 years ago and nothing major has changed in that time. The dual carriageway sections are often reminiscent of the old A74; lovely on a bright summer's day but treacherous on a dark, wet night when you can't do more than 45 or 50 mph with any degree of safety. It has some very dangerous intersections on both the single and dual carriageway sections which could and should have been improved years ago. I had the dubious pleasure of being stuck behind a tractor on the Fonthill to Mere section last April, and it was so busy coming the other way that no one could get past. 7 miles at 20 mph on the main road from London to the South West is not on. (I thought I was on the M6 in Birmingham!!) So, on this one,we'll have to agree to disagree. The 303 is a great driving road if the weather and traffic conditions are spot on, but the rest of the time, I'd like the M3 or a direct train from Woking to Padstow!! (Yes, reopen the line to Padstow!!)
Seven years on, my views haven't really changed that much WRT this road. It still needs fixing.
18 years on from the original post, and 45 years on from the first time that I thought the 303 needed fixing, one does begin to wonder why so little has been done to sort this road out over the past few decades?? At the very least, the section by the Marsh Curve should have been straightened out when Abba were at the top of the charts!!
I have seen an idea somewhere for a motorway linking the M4 east of Bath to the M5 south of Bristol I.e. a Bristol Eastern Bypass to relieve pressure on the roads north of that city. If this was built, do you think this would provide a sufficiently fast alternative to the existing A303 as to render a Popham to Exeter motorway unnecessary? London to West Country traffic could go M4-Bristol bypass-M5, and even traffic going Southampton to the West Country could go A34-M4-Bristol bypass-M5.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by A320Driver »

Uncle Buck wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 15:33 I have seen an idea somewhere for a motorway linking the M4 east of Bath to the M5 south of Bristol I.e. a Bristol Eastern Bypass to relieve pressure on the roads north of that city. If this was built, do you think this would provide a sufficiently fast alternative to the existing A303 as to render a Popham to Exeter motorway unnecessary? London to West Country traffic could go M4-Bristol bypass-M5, and even traffic going Southampton to the West Country could go A34-M4-Bristol bypass-M5.
Nice fantasy idea, but there is absolutely zero chance of building a new motorway to the south of Bath and through the countryside. Not to mention the terrain isn’t favourable.

Plus the only strategic purpose for such a route (M4 traffic originating from points east of Swindon) would be served equally well by an upgraded A34 (already D2) and the remaining parts of the A303&A358.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Scratchwood »

Bizarre to not provide free flowing slip roads at J25, which makes you wonder what the intention is for A303 drivers. Will the signage at Ilminster send people up the A358/M5 route or not, will the A303 through Blackdown be downgraded?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by M5Lenzar »

Peter350 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:25 On a slight tangent, I think what is also needed is a new junction on the M5 for Taunton north of J25.
North of J25 and you're starting to get too far from Taunton - the A38 between Taunton and Bridgwater is not the best of roads and already congested with local traffic.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Herned »

M5Lenzar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 17:41 North of J25 and you're starting to get too far from Taunton - the A38 between Taunton and Bridgwater is not the best of roads and already congested with local traffic.
Surprised you would think the A38 is not the best of roads, aside from the section through North Petherton it's much better than plenty of trunk roads...

North facing slips from the A361 would be straightforward, and are going to be on the edge of the built-up area in the next five years.
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Uncle Buck »

A320Driver wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 16:22
Uncle Buck wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 15:33 I have seen an idea somewhere for a motorway linking the M4 east of Bath to the M5 south of Bristol I.e. a Bristol Eastern Bypass to relieve pressure on the roads north of that city. If this was built, do you think this would provide a sufficiently fast alternative to the existing A303 as to render a Popham to Exeter motorway unnecessary? London to West Country traffic could go M4-Bristol bypass-M5, and even traffic going Southampton to the West Country could go A34-M4-Bristol bypass-M5.
Nice fantasy idea, but there is absolutely zero chance of building a new motorway to the south of Bath and through the countryside. Not to mention the terrain isn’t favourable.

Plus the only strategic purpose for such a route (M4 traffic originating from points east of Swindon) would be served equally well by an upgraded A34 (already D2) and the remaining parts of the A303&A358.
Right, wasn’t sure how credible a plan that was. I think it was a suggestion by a blue-line-fetishist organisation who if memory serves me correctly also wanted to build a motorway from Chester to Hereford!

I’m vaguely familiar with the Bristol/Bath area due to relatives who live there, but I don’t know the layout of the route this bypass would take.

I prefer your suggestion-call it the M30!
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by Richardf »

M5Lenzar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 17:41
Peter350 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:25 On a slight tangent, I think what is also needed is a new junction on the M5 for Taunton north of J25.
North of J25 and you're starting to get too far from Taunton - the A38 between Taunton and Bridgwater is not the best of roads and already congested with local traffic.
What about something a bit further south at Monkton Heathfield. Could something be done there to tie in with the new roads and developments there?
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by SteveA30 »

What does anyone make of this? Move cursor to Aerial and, click on Road and some sheds/units come up which have clearly been demolished for this.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=69cf99af ... orm=S00027
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by thatapanydude »

Re. the tie up of the A358 at Taunton I am happy with this. Why spend money when traffic from Exeter and the A30/A38 will still use the A303, better to leave the scheme as it is and wait another 10/15 years when you can dual through blackdown hills. I do still expect the A303/A30 though to be trunk - will be very dissapointed if this is passed to the council as dualling the A358 and leaving it at that isn't doing the job properly.

The purpose of the A358 dualling is to provide a DC route for HGV's to use to the M5, helps N-S traffic from Somerset, Devon and Dorset and in summer when traffic is bad spread the load between the A303 and M5.

Re. number changes, the A303 number is iconic in my view and I would keep it. I would even extend into London and replace the A316 so the turn off at Hammersmith is "The South West A303 (M3)".
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Re: Why the A303 will probably never become a motorway and won't be fully dualled for a long time

Post by DavidBrown »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 22:41The purpose of the A358 dualling is to provide a DC route for HGV's to use to the M5, helps N-S traffic from Somerset, Devon and Dorset and in summer when traffic is bad spread the load between the A303 and M5.
Errr, no? You've never driven the A358, have you? It's bad every day of the year, especially through Henlade, not just on 6 Saturday's as far too many on here still seem to think. Also don't forget that dualling the Blackdown Hills route completely bypasses the whole of west Somerset and north Devon, so already its usefulness isn't anything like that of the A358 route, let alone the north-south traffic you mention between Yeovil/Dorchester/Weymouth and a huge chunk of the rest of the country that also uses this stretch of the A358.

Why spend money on the A358 tie in at Taunton? Have you seen the state of J25 now even without all that extra traffic? How on earth will bolting on a new dual carriageway without any way of bypassing the roundabout help matters?
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