Newt counting

[fras]

I see the Blob have rushed to pooh-pooh Boris Johnsons comments about newt-counting. Well, maybe things are a bit different now, but they certainly cost a lot of money at one time: -

https://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/news/l ... 635959.amp

I wonder how much newt searches cost when building the new A556 between Jn 16 M6 and the M56

[RichardA35]

I see the Blob have rushed to pooh-pooh Boris Johnsons comments about newt-counting. Well, maybe things are a bit different now, but they certainly cost a lot of money at one time: -

https://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/news/l ... 635959.amp

I wonder how much newt searches cost when building the new A556 between Jn 16 M6 and the M56

Pure dog-whistle to the extremists.
Which laws should be disregarded when planning and executing schemes?
No one is going to plan to disobey legislation in our industry so if the politicians want things to change they know what they can do to bring it about.

[Debaser]

I see the Blob have rushed to pooh-pooh Boris Johnsons comments about newt-counting. Well, maybe things are a bit different now, but they certainly cost a lot of money at one time: -

https://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/news/l ... 635959.amp

I wonder how much newt searches cost when building the new A556 between Jn 16 M6 and the M56

Basically, information wasn't available in a 'timely' manner and since the project apparently couldn't be delayed they went for the 'robust' (i.e. belt and braces) option. Decisions like that are made all the time when you're dealing with the natural environment (and I include in that the location of stats equipment, etc.) rather than a perfect system where we have control over everything.

[hoagy_ytfc]

Blob?

[WHBM]

Meanwhile the reasonable ones of us cannot reconcile the claimed rarity of such animals with their ability to be absolutely everywhere projects are in hand. The linked article states they were found to be in every pond and stream along the route.

[RichardA35]

Meanwhile the reasonable ones of us cannot reconcile the claimed rarity of such animals with their ability to be absolutely everywhere projects are in hand.

That may be so, but those of us that face up to the challenge are mindful of the penalties for ignoring or wilfully disobeying the law and would rather rely on our expertise to be compliant rather than hoping for a "reasonable" judge. (£100,000) Fine for Environmental Offence Affecting Great Crested Newts

The linked article states they were found to be in every pond and stream along the route.

Then all the more reason to be in compliance with the law as they would have been picked up from the very first desktop and walkover surveys and widely known to all interested parties.

Now if the politicians wish to change the relevant law the industry will respond accordingly, but remember bats, badgers, dormice, reptiles, water voles and nesting birds still exist and have protections....

[jackal]

Protections certainly can be applied in less than sensible ways, as in the linked article, but that's hardly the newts' fault.

[RichardA35]

Protections certainly can be applied in less than sensible ways, as in the linked article, but that's hardly the newts' fault.

Especially on schemes where the Client has put it on a shelf for a year or two and when it comes down again with pressure for a start, an "expert" will appear, suck through his teeth and say "we'll have to redo the surveys, you'll not be on here for two years" and it's then a battle to get anything happening at all.
Thankfully, the specialists I've encountered working for contractors seem to be better attuned to getting things moving than those who make their living from clients or design consultants.

[fras]

Then there is the tunnel on the planned-to-be-reopened Oxford-Cambridge railway. Bats were found to be living in the tunnel, and some people actually said that the railway should not be re-opened because of this. I'm just waiting for a special order for worm protection.

Here's a paper on bat protection on the HS2 route. Just how much did the consultants who produced this get paid ? Britain has gone completely barmy !!

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/u ... erplan.pdf

[darkcape]

If it's costing you that much per Newt, you're doing it wrong. We've been dealing with newts and other protected species long enough now to manage the issue without excessive costs or delays.

Richard has put it politely, I would've used a far worse term to describe it. Newts are the LAST thing that is slowing down construction.

There was a certain project manager for a major junction upgrade who said on TV it costs £50k per newt, instantly regretted it and spent the next few years correcting everyone who mentioned it.

[Truvelo]

Then there is the tunnel on the planned-to-be-reopened Oxford-Cambridge railway. Bats were found to be living in the tunnel, and some people actually said that the railway should not be re-opened because of this. I'm just waiting for a special order for worm protection.

Here's a paper on bat protection on the HS2 route. Just how much did the consultants who produced this get paid ? Britain has gone completely barmy !!

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/u ... erplan.pdf

This sort of thing has reared its ugly head before. The A46 bypass of M40 J15 was supposed to be GSJ'd throughout but bats were found on the planned alignment. The road was moved to avoid the bats but this meant a piddly little roundabout was built at the junction of the B4463 instead of south facing slips

[Chris Bertram]

Meanwhile the reasonable ones of us cannot reconcile the claimed rarity of such animals with their ability to be absolutely everywhere projects are in hand.

That may be so, but those of us that face up to the challenge are mindful of the penalties for ignoring or wilfully disobeying the law and would rather rely on our expertise to be compliant rather than hoping for a "reasonable" judge. (£100,000) Fine for Environmental Offence Affecting Great Crested Newts

The linked article states they were found to be in every pond and stream along the route.

Then all the more reason to be in compliance with the law as they would have been picked up from the very first desktop and walkover surveys and widely known to all interested parties.

Now if the politicians wish to change the relevant law the industry will respond accordingly, but remember bats, badgers, dormice, reptiles, water voles and nesting birds still exist and have protections....

I think the dissonance is between "they're very rare" and "we found them everywhere on the route". Surely one of these contradicts the other?

[Chris Bertram]

Then there is the tunnel on the planned-to-be-reopened Oxford-Cambridge railway. Bats were found to be living in the tunnel, and some people actually said that the railway should not be re-opened because of this. I'm just waiting for a special order for worm protection.

Here's a paper on bat protection on the HS2 route. Just how much did the consultants who produced this get paid ? Britain has gone completely barmy !!

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/u ... erplan.pdf

This sort of thing has reared its ugly head before. The A46 bypass of M40 J15 was supposed to be GSJ'd throughout but bats were found on the planned alignment. The road was moved to avoid the bats but this meant a piddly little roundabout was built at the junction of the B4463 instead of south facing slips

Is it actually believed that bats are not capable of moving themselves to take account of changed landscape?

[trickstat]

Then there is the tunnel on the planned-to-be-reopened Oxford-Cambridge railway. Bats were found to be living in the tunnel, and some people actually said that the railway should not be re-opened because of this. I'm just waiting for a special order for worm protection.

Here's a paper on bat protection on the HS2 route. Just how much did the consultants who produced this get paid ? Britain has gone completely barmy !!

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/u ... erplan.pdf

This sort of thing has reared its ugly head before. The A46 bypass of M40 J15 was supposed to be GSJ'd throughout but bats were found on the planned alignment. The road was moved to avoid the bats but this meant a piddly little roundabout was built at the junction of the B4463 instead of south facing slips

Is it actually believed that bats are not capable of moving themselves to take account of changed landscape?

Wouldn't it be relatively simple to build a smaller, substitute structure somewhere in the vicinity in these situations?

[darkcape]

Meanwhile the reasonable ones of us cannot reconcile the claimed rarity of such animals with their ability to be absolutely everywhere projects are in hand.

That may be so, but those of us that face up to the challenge are mindful of the penalties for ignoring or wilfully disobeying the law and would rather rely on our expertise to be compliant rather than hoping for a "reasonable" judge. (£100,000) Fine for Environmental Offence Affecting Great Crested Newts

The linked article states they were found to be in every pond and stream along the route.

Then all the more reason to be in compliance with the law as they would have been picked up from the very first desktop and walkover surveys and widely known to all interested parties.

Now if the politicians wish to change the relevant law the industry will respond accordingly, but remember bats, badgers, dormice, reptiles, water voles and nesting birds still exist and have protections....

I think the dissonance is between "they're very rare" and "we found them everywhere on the route". Surely one of these contradicts the other?

Newts aren't rare in the UK but are elsewhere in Europe hence the protection laws (I'll stop before mentioning the B-word!)

[RichardA35]

I think the dissonance is between "they're very rare" and "we found them everywhere on the route". Surely one of these contradicts the other?

That may be an interesting side point, but it comes back to the fact they are a protected species and it is not in the gift of clients or contractors or anyone in the industry or anywhere to ride roughshod over laws they may not agree with.
Politicians can change laws and Johnson's statement was a dog whistle to those with a more extreme view who would seek to change the current environmental protection laws.

[Barkstar]

I think the dissonance is between "they're very rare" and "we found them everywhere on the route". Surely one of these contradicts the other?

That may be an interesting side point, but it comes back to the fact they are a protected species and it is not in the gift of clients or contractors or anyone in the industry or anywhere to ride roughshod over laws they may not agree with.
Politicians can change laws and Johnson's statement was a dog whistle to those with a more extreme view who would seek to change the current environmental protection laws.

According to this BBC article just about everyone involved - except Boris of course - has pooh pooed his claim. He's very clearly trying to divert our attention while making major changes to planning laws which could easily have a major impact urban and suburban dwellers quality of life - and on the bank balances of Tory party donors doubtless. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53276461

We reduce biodiversity at our peril.

[WHBM]

I think we are all on the same side, but the sheer gap between crested newts being claimed to be a rare endangered species and the fact that they seem to be readily found on just about every engineering project imaginable (they were even on the M25 J27 widening), stated to be in every pond on this project, and thus able to live in a full range of habitats, just looks like there is a gross error somewhere along the way, and as alluded to above there are naturalists making a good living out of pursuing this line. Collecting and rehoming them should not be a gross cost, nor a disturbance to the project schedule.

The linked £100k fine case was far more of one against unauthorised and illicit bulk dumping of material which polluted watercourses. The endangered species act allowed a way to pursue that case.

[Debaser]

I think we are all on the same side, but the sheer gap between crested newts being claimed to be a rare endangered species and the fact that they seem to be readily found on just about every engineering project imaginable (they were even on the M25 J27 widening), stated to be in every pond on this project, and thus able to live in a full range of habitats, just looks like there is a gross error somewhere along the way, and as alluded to above there are naturalists making a good living out of pursuing this line. Collecting and rehoming them should not be a gross cost, nor a disturbance to the project schedule.

The linked £100k fine case was far more of one against unauthorised and illicit bulk dumping of material which polluted watercourses. The endangered species act allowed a way to pursue that case.

My understanding is the same as Darkcape's. As a European species they are rare on the European mainland and therefore endangered. The UK seems to be a haven for them, therefore they are protected.

It's a bit like going to some Scottish island and finding golden eagles everywhere you look. It doesn't mean we can just get rid of a few of them as they're so common. As we know, throughout the UK they're not.

[DB617]

Now if the politicians wish to change the relevant law the industry will respond accordingly, but remember bats, badgers, dormice, reptiles, water voles and nesting birds still exist and have protections....

This is what does my swede in, big time, when it comes to the current discussions over planning rules. They have absolute power to just change the rules. There's really no need for this blustery boarding school style peer pressure. It's as if the people making these comments are rolling their eyes at the industry and saying "why can't you all just stop being bores and ignore the rules for us?" If they actually wanted to be responsible for change, the changes would be made. I think we can all rest assured that disobeying any current regulations passed by an Act of Parliament will still result in prosecution later down the line, even if it isn't immediate, regardless of passing comments made by senior leadership.