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Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 15:12
Yes, but don't be surprised to find people can be spiteful and find other ways to get you and I am sure the registration number of a vehicle driven by someone ignoring Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act is something that even a parking company can pass onto the police for consideration. I would advise not looking for technicalities on such matters if you've used an access road to leave the motorway improperly, but that's just me.
I would point out that the Woolley Edge signs are hardly "of the prescribed size, colour and type".
Well there's a non-shock.
If we did things properly in this country, the rear access should be designated on the Special Roads Order, as a link road like any normal slip road, but subject to access restrictions. This would be possible as part of the planning process and would immediately make misuse of such roads unlawful as is done with works only sliproads such as the pair on the M6 adjacent to the maintenance depot at Garstang.
But we don't do things properly so these halfway houses of legality crop up, no-one quite knows what to do with them.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 15:12
Yes, but don't be surprised to find people can be spiteful and find other ways to get you and I am sure the registration number of a vehicle driven by someone ignoring Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act is something that even a parking company can pass onto the police for consideration. I would advise not looking for technicalities on such matters if you've used an access road to leave the motorway improperly, but that's just me.
I would point out that the Woolley Edge signs are hardly "of the prescribed size, colour and type".
Well there's a non-shock.
If we did things properly in this country, the rear access should be designated on the Special Roads Order, as a link road like any normal slip road, but subject to access restrictions. This would be possible as part of the planning process and would immediately make misuse of such roads unlawful as is done with works only sliproads such as the pair on the M6 adjacent to the maintenance depot at Garstang.
But we don't do things properly so these halfway houses of legality crop up, no-one quite knows what to do with them.
I mean, I'm not sure about the rear accesses being designated special roads, as I'm pretty sure employees would be allowed to use them if commuting by bicycle?
Talking of which, the Not Quite The Spurn Head 400 Audax uses Woolley Edge as one of the controls, so even if it's technically prohibited, it's found its way onto an organised event!
solocle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:10
I mean, I'm not sure about the rear accesses being designated special roads, as I'm pretty sure employees would be allowed to use them if commuting by bicycle?
Talking of which, the Not Quite The Spurn Head 400 Audax uses Woolley Edge as one of the controls, so even if it's technically prohibited, it's found its way onto an organised event!
You can allow cyclists onto a special road if you vary the classes permitted. Remember that the legislation means everything is prohibited unless specifically allowed by the order. This is why the A55 at Colwyn Bay is signed as an A road, despite being legally a special road - it allows classes other than I & II onto it. The original example, written way back in 1949 is the foot and cycleway across the Severn and Wye Bridges on the then M4, now M48.
So it would be perfectly feasible to open the access to a service area to cyclist based employee because this would be a specific exemption. It's also why service areas have "End of motorway regulations" signs instead of the crossed out motorway symbol - because you are still on a motorway, but the restrictions on stopping and walking do not apply in the exempted area.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
solocle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:10
I mean, I'm not sure about the rear accesses being designated special roads, as I'm pretty sure employees would be allowed to use them if commuting by bicycle?
Talking of which, the Not Quite The Spurn Head 400 Audax uses Woolley Edge as one of the controls, so even if it's technically prohibited, it's found its way onto an organised event!
You can allow cyclists onto a special road if you vary the classes permitted. Remember that the legislation means everything is prohibited unless specifically allowed by the order. This is why the A55 at Colwyn Bay is signed as an A road, despite being legally a special road - it allows classes other than I & II onto it. The original example, written way back in 1949 is the foot and cycleway across the Severn and Wye Bridges on the then M4, now M48.
So it would be perfectly feasible to open the access to a service area to cyclist based employee because this would be a specific exemption. It's also why service areas have "End of motorway regulations" signs instead of the crossed out motorway symbol - because you are still on a motorway, but the restrictions on stopping and walking do not apply in the exempted area.
True, although we could then go into "what if they come to work on a little tractor,..." It just would seem neater for the motorway service area to be all purpose roads, with the same restrictions, albeit only accessible from a motorway, and a back entrance under an "authorized vehicles" TRO - perhaps even allow non-motorway general traffic to access the services that way, since that would still comply with government policy of preventing motorway access, as far as I can tell.
I think we're approaching from the opposite sides of the same coin truth be told!
Either way would work, but it still relies on the competence of consultants, HE, and even the DfT to all be in place and working in harmony. Can you imagine a world where we did things properly first time? *shudders*
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
If we did things properly in this country, the rear access should be designated on the Special Roads Order, as a link road like any normal slip road, but subject to access restrictions. This would be possible as part of the planning process and would immediately make misuse of such roads unlawful as is done with works only sliproads such as the pair on the M6 adjacent to the maintenance depot at Garstang.
But we don't do things properly so these halfway houses of legality crop up, no-one quite knows what to do with them.
Given that the rear access is typically not a special road and neither is the MSA this would hardly be appropriate. The entire point of such an access is to allow authorised traffic to enter the MSA without accessing the motorway.
KeithW wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:40
Given that the rear access is typically not a special road and neither is the MSA this would hardly be appropriate. The entire point of such an access is to allow authorised traffic to enter the MSA without accessing the motorway.
When Woolley Edge was built it was part of the area covered by the special roads order, as were all MSA sites as they were government owned. They were not designed to be open to users of nearby A-roads to sneak into for a packet of cigs or to avoid using a junction 6 miles away. Staff usage is inconsequential to applying motorway restrictions with exemptions as per the RTRA/Highways Act as appropriate.
And what part of you can allow authorised traffic onto a motorway provided the special roads order states so is the problem? You could argue it is hardly appropriate for the path alongside the M48 to be a motorway in terms of law with exemptions for foot and cycle traffic, but it is because it was built as part of that contract. The same applied with MSAs.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
If we did things properly in this country, the rear access should be designated on the Special Roads Order, as a link road like any normal slip road, but subject to access restrictions. This would be possible as part of the planning process and would immediately make misuse of such roads unlawful as is done with works only sliproads such as the pair on the M6 adjacent to the maintenance depot at Garstang.
But we don't do things properly so these halfway houses of legality crop up, no-one quite knows what to do with them.
Given that the rear access is typically not a special road and neither is the MSA this would hardly be appropriate. The entire point of such an access is to allow authorised traffic to enter the MSA without accessing the motorway.
That one is something of a honeypot! You can cycle past the No Motor Vehicles sign, and enter the services. But, if you try and exit that way? No Entry. With all other exits having legally compliant chopsticks, you're trapped there forever, in theory!
It's almost as bad as the emergency access slips around Catthorpe being, you guessed it, No Motor Vehicles!
Big L wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 16:06
So to get to the "metal recycling centre" (scrapyard) you need specific permission from the police? Local authority? Highways agency? All of them?
I think that common sense comes into play because just the other side of the motorway beyond the yards there are these (open) gates which would seem be the absolute limit. I I would imagine that access to the scrap yards is deemed as authorised.
Brenley Corner: congesting traffic since 1963; discussing roads since 2002
solocle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:53That one is something of a honeypot! You can cycle past the No Motor Vehicles sign, and enter the services. But, if you try and exit that way? No Entry. With all other exits having legally compliant chopsticks, you're trapped there forever, in theory!
Couldn't you dismount the bike and carry it out? Pedestrians are allowed to go through a No Entry sign backwards, after all.
solocle wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:53That one is something of a honeypot! You can cycle past the No Motor Vehicles sign, and enter the services. But, if you try and exit that way? No Entry. With all other exits having legally compliant chopsticks, you're trapped there forever, in theory!
Couldn't you dismount the bike and carry it out? Pedestrians are allowed to go through a No Entry sign backwards, after all.
Well, by the same logic, I'm pretty sure you could legally get out of the car and push...
On a serious note, TSRGD states All vehicles prohibited except non-mechanically
propelled vehicles pushed by pedestrians for the No Vehicles sign, whereas it states that No Entry is No entry for vehicular traffic
So it would seem that even pushing a bike through a no entry sign is a violation!
WHBM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:39
How does that stand legally ? is it part of the M62 and thus subject to motorway regulations, or is it a private road and therefore unenforceable. The own-format signage style seems to point to the latter.
As I recall its a civil matter and if enforced it would be in the form of a charge for access. Originally control was achieved using rising bollards but these were such a pain to maintain that they were removed or disabled and ANPR cameras used instead.
The DfT stipulates that Motorway services must control access via the rear entrance. While the service area is not under motorway regulations failing to do so could permit traffic other than Class I or II to access it. In practise few service areas do rigorously enforce it and the DfT only gets involved when the number of illegal accesses is perceived as an issue.
Incidentally having stumbled upon this thread again, in the interim I have legitimately used the Woolley Edge rear access on a bicycle, as I was a lodge guest. Getting out the same way did mean contravening a no-entry sign, but oh well
