Crossing Borders: The M4 and M6

[ManomayLR]

It is interesting (to me at least) that at this diverge, you are committing yourself to joining the M6 and continuing at least as far as Carlisle. So what is its number? The chopsticks sign has none. It leads inescapably to the M6, so is it part of that? No. It predates the filling of the Cumberland Gap and it leads onto the south end of the A74(M), so not the M6. Perhaps it is the A74(M)? If so, why not sign it like any other motorway entrance? Is it part of the A75, and therefore the A75(M)? It could be - if you are heading west from the A74(M) it leads inescapably onto the A75.

I have no idea. Sheeesh! I even checked out a motorway website which, as far as I can see, makes no reference to it under any of these numbers.

Simon

I think of it as the A75, subject to motorway regulations.

Before the upgrading of the A74 to motorway, the A75 had a south-facing freeflow interchange with the A74; I don't know if the alignment of the slip roads were reconfigured when the A74 gained its third lane and blue signage, but the junction is basically the same as it was before the coming of the motorway.

So, to my mind, because the A75 used to flow straight into the A74, and because the A74(M) is the A74 subject to motorway regulations, those slips have always been and are still part of the A75. And, I guess, therefore an unsigned A75(M).

This is getting out of hand - now there are two of them! (with reference to the A1/A14 Alconbury spur)

Steven quick - maybe this deserves a place on PM!

[Owain]

It is interesting (to me at least) that at this diverge, you are committing yourself to joining the M6 and continuing at least as far as Carlisle. So what is its number? The chopsticks sign has none. It leads inescapably to the M6, so is it part of that? No. It predates the filling of the Cumberland Gap and it leads onto the south end of the A74(M), so not the M6. Perhaps it is the A74(M)? If so, why not sign it like any other motorway entrance? Is it part of the A75, and therefore the A75(M)? It could be - if you are heading west from the A74(M) it leads inescapably onto the A75.

I have no idea. Sheeesh! I even checked out a motorway website which, as far as I can see, makes no reference to it under any of these numbers.

Simon

I think of it as the A75, subject to motorway regulations.

Before the upgrading of the A74 to motorway, the A75 had a south-facing freeflow interchange with the A74; I don't know if the alignment of the slip roads were reconfigured when the A74 gained its third lane and blue signage, but the junction is basically the same as it was before the coming of the motorway.

So, to my mind, because the A75 used to flow straight into the A74, and because the A74(M) is the A74 subject to motorway regulations, those slips have always been and are still part of the A75. And, I guess, therefore an unsigned A75(M).

This is getting out of hand - now there are two of them! (with reference to the A1/A14 Alconbury spur)

Steven quick - maybe this deserves a place on PM!

Some might even say that there are three...

[ManomayLR]

I think of it as the A75, subject to motorway regulations.

Before the upgrading of the A74 to motorway, the A75 had a south-facing freeflow interchange with the A74; I don't know if the alignment of the slip roads were reconfigured when the A74 gained its third lane and blue signage, but the junction is basically the same as it was before the coming of the motorway.

So, to my mind, because the A75 used to flow straight into the A74, and because the A74(M) is the A74 subject to motorway regulations, those slips have always been and are still part of the A75. And, I guess, therefore an unsigned A75(M).

This is getting out of hand - now there are two of them! (with reference to the A1/A14 Alconbury spur)

Steven quick - maybe this deserves a place on PM!

Some might even say that there are three...

Oh my...

[DB617]

I don't think the 'A50(M)' leads inescapably to motorway apart from in the case of the short slip roads, which are arguably all over the country and technically part of the motorway. Tracing out the eastbound carriageway, the A50 heads down to the two bridge roundabout over the M1, which is still part of the A50/A453. Why that sign is blue, I don't know.

[ais523]

I don't think the 'A50(M)' leads inescapably to motorway apart from in the case of the short slip roads, which are arguably all over the country and technically part of the motorway. Tracing out the eastbound carriageway, the A50 heads down to the two bridge roundabout over the M1, which is still part of the A50/A453. Why that sign is blue, I don't know.

That's a sliproad from the M1 southbound to the A50 westbound, which is under motorway regulations at that point because there's been no opportunity to join it after leaving the M1. The "end of motorway" sign is further along (here), so the sign is blue because the road is under motorway regulations.

The confusion is that the other carriageway (from which the linked photo was taken) is not a slip road, but the main line of the A50 (and, e.g., usable by pedestrians; it even has a pavement and a cycle path!). So we have a dual carriageway that's an all-purpose A road eastbound, but a slip road under motorway regulations westbound. (This leads to interesting questions about whether, e.g., U-turning would be legal, although the barrier in the central reservation makes it physically impossible anyway.)

[DB617]

I don't think the 'A50(M)' leads inescapably to motorway apart from in the case of the short slip roads, which are arguably all over the country and technically part of the motorway. Tracing out the eastbound carriageway, the A50 heads down to the two bridge roundabout over the M1, which is still part of the A50/A453. Why that sign is blue, I don't know.

That's a sliproad from the M1 southbound to the A50 westbound, which is under motorway regulations at that point because there's been no opportunity to join it after leaving the M1. The "end of motorway" sign is further along (here), so the sign is blue because the road is under motorway regulations.

The confusion is that the other carriageway (from which the linked photo was taken) is not a slip road, but the main line of the A50 (and, e.g., usable by pedestrians; it even has a pavement!). So we have a dual carriageway that's an all-purpose A road eastbound, but a slip road under motorway regulations westbound. (This leads to interesting questions about whether, e.g., U-turning would be legal, although the barrier in the central reservation makes it physically impossible anyway.)

Oh, I see what you mean! It is a bit of an unusual situation because of the way they split the old A50 line to the east and west of the M1. Are there any other complex interchanges where this sort of thing happens?

[Vierwielen]

It is interesting (to me at least) that at this diverge, you are committing yourself to joining the M6 and continuing at least as far as Carlisle. So what is its number? The chopsticks sign has none. It leads inescapably to the M6, so is it part of that? No. It predates the filling of the Cumberland Gap and it leads onto the south end of the A74(M), so not the M6. Perhaps it is the A74(M)? If so, why not sign it like any other motorway entrance? Is it part of the A75, and therefore the A75(M)? It could be - if you are heading west from the A74(M) it leads inescapably onto the A75.

I have no idea. Sheeesh! I even checked out a motorway website which, as far as I can see, makes no reference to it under any of these numbers.

Simon

The real answer lies, I suspect, in who maintains that piece of slip road. I suspect that that there might have been a bit of quid-pro-quo between the Highways Agency and the Scottish Government - the HA maintains the whole slip road regardless of whether it is in England or Scotland and teh SCottish Government maintains the whole of the motorway beyond J46, again regardless of whether it is in England or Scotland.

[someone]

Perhaps it is the A74(M)?

Sometimes you need to look indirectly to find out that…

The length of the A74(M) Motorway being the Southbound On-Slip Road at Junction 22 (Gretna) from the A75 Trunk Road, a distance of 1344 metres or thereby.

Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2007 ... tents/made

[Osthagen]

Some might even say that there are three...

Without wanting to get too sidetracked here, the A685(M) is another possible 'secretive' motorway, as in the spur leading onto the M6 at Tebay, Cumbria (J38). The morbid website Everyaccident.co.uk lists every accident to have occurred on British roads since 1979. One of the roads listed is indeed the A685(M).

Edit: there seems to be rather a lot of fictional roads on that site ("B1" and "M7" for example), so I guess they rely on dubious information from informants. Indeed, A75(M) is on there.

[ais523]

There's a B1 on the Isle of Man. I don't think there's ever been an M7 in the UK though (there's one in the Republic of Ireland, but presumably that wouldn't count for the site).

[Chris Bertram]

There's a B1 on the Isle of Man. I don't think there's ever been an M7 in the UK though (there's one in the Republic of Ireland, but presumably that wouldn't count for the site).

There's a B1 in Northern Ireland too.

[vlad]

Without wanting to get too sidetracked here, the A685(M) is another possible 'secretive' motorway, as in the spur leading onto the M6 at Tebay, Cumbria (J38)....

I'd just say those are slip roads leading to the roundabout. M6 J15 has a similar layout and nobody has mentioned that that is the A500(M). It's a bit weird as all four slip roads meet at the same point but as far as I'm concerned it's just a complicated version of M6 J39 - you definitely wouldn't say the slip roads are part of the B6261(M)!

[Phil]

How come the M4 stays M4 when it goes into Wales, but M6 becomes A74M?

Scotland has always had a separate legal system - for many centuries, "England & Wales" were dealt with as a single entity.

Road classification is riddled with exceptions to the zoning system - the A1 stays the A1 when it goes into Scotland.

Yup.

Its down to the fact that England INVADED and CONQUERED Wales - and as per all victors throughout history the English went and dismantled the losers legal systems etc to crush their way of life (it was illegal to speak or teach Welsh at some points following the conquest) as well as install a relative of the ruling family as the leader of the conquered nation (Hence why the title of 'Pince of Wales' automatically goes to the eldest son of the reigning English monarch).

By contrast the joining of England and Scotland occurred was done as a merger of equals (In fact the most influential English Lords invited the Scottish King to become King of England as well so as to ensure England remained a Protestant nation). This meant that Scotland and England kept their own legal systems etc after the merger as there was no need for either side to suppress the 'conquered' nation.

Come Devolution in the late 90s, Scotland was given far more power than Wales because of how they were joined with England back in the day (i.e. Scotland retained far more of its own institutions / customs than Wales.

As for roads, its been established that had Devolution not occurred (and motorways in Scotland remained part of a National Highways Agency controlled by Westminster) then the M74 would have been renumbered as an extension of the M6 right from the Scottish border to Glasgow just as the M4 is continuous from England into Wales and the A1 reaches into Edinburgh. Post devolution however all road matters were transferred to the devolved administrations in Wales and Scotland - with the result that the Scots ditched any plans to have their longest stretch of motorway be 'conquered' and rubbed out of existence by an English number with the handy excuse that the Scots had better things to spend their cash on than changing thousands of road signs.

Personally the biggest bugbear is not that the M6 turns into the M74, its that the M74 switches to the A74(M) for no good reason halfway along* Given "M74" requires less (not more space), the numbers are basically the same so commercial maps / advertising (or even the odd forgotten sign) is not going to cause that much confusion to motorists) and the signs on the northern half wouldn't need changing, it would be nice if the Scottish Government tided the situation up and called the entire thing within their jurisdiction the "M74"

* Yes I know why this happened, but come on that was almost 3 decades ago!

[Vierwielen]

... snip

By contrast the joining of England and Scotland occurred was done as a merger of equals (In fact the most influential English Lords invited the Scottish King to become King of England as well so as to ensure England remained a Protestant nation). This meant that Scotland and England kept their own legal systems etc after the merger as there was no need for either side to suppress the 'conquered' nation.

... snip

A minor correction to history - James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne from Elizabeth I (who was his cousin twice removed) by virtue of their common ancestry from Henry VII. After James heard that Elizabeth had died (1603), he hot-footed it to London and never returned to Scotland. He took on the title James II of England. From the point of view of the English nobility, the War of the Roses would have erupted again had anybody else tried to claim the throne. Thereafter the monarch of England was also the monarch of Scotland. It was only in 1707 (104 years later) that the Act of Union took place and England and Scotland were merged under a single Parliament. Prior to that James VII of Scotland was also James II of England and WIlliam III of England was also WIlliam II of Scotland.

Seven years later (1714), after Queen Anne died, was the normal line of succession overriden and George I, Elector of Hannover and great-gransson of James I/VI became king. He continued to rule both Great Britain as king and Hannover as elector without the two countries being merged in any way. In 1807 the Elector of Hannover became King of Hannover and in 1837 the thrones were split when Hannovarian Law prevented a woman (Queen Victoria) from ascending the throne.

[Chris Bertram]

... snip

By contrast the joining of England and Scotland occurred was done as a merger of equals (In fact the most influential English Lords invited the Scottish King to become King of England as well so as to ensure England remained a Protestant nation). This meant that Scotland and England kept their own legal systems etc after the merger as there was no need for either side to suppress the 'conquered' nation.

... snip

A minor correction to history - James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne from Elizabeth I (who was his cousin twice removed) by virtue of their common ancestry from Henry VII. After James heard that Elizabeth had died (1603), he hot-footed it to London and never returned to Scotland. He took on the title James II of England. From the point of view of the English nobility, the War of the Roses would have erupted again had anybody else tried to claim the throne. Thereafter the monarch of England was also the monarch of Scotland. It was only in 1707 (104 years later) that the Act of Union took place and England and Scotland were merged under a single Parliament. Prior to that James VII of Scotland was also James II of England and WIlliam III of England was also WIlliam II of Scotland.

Seven years later (1714), after Queen Anne died, was the normal line of succession overriden and George I, Elector of Hannover and great-gransson of James I/VI became king. He continued to rule both Great Britain as king and Hannover as elector without the two countries being merged in any way. In 1807 the Elector of Hannover became King of Hannover and in 1837 the thrones were split when Hannovarian Law prevented a woman (Queen Victoria) from ascending the throne.

James I. Not sure whether he was strictly the closest in the line of succession, but Elizabeth's Privy Council saw the benefit in extending an invitation to take the throne. James II/VII was the one deposed for trying to re-catholicise England, fled overseas and was replaced by William (III) and Mary (II) in 1688.

[Vierwielen]

... snip

By contrast the joining of England and Scotland occurred was done as a merger of equals (In fact the most influential English Lords invited the Scottish King to become King of England as well so as to ensure England remained a Protestant nation). This meant that Scotland and England kept their own legal systems etc after the merger as there was no need for either side to suppress the 'conquered' nation.

... snip

A minor correction to history - James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne from Elizabeth I (who was his cousin twice removed) by virtue of their common ancestry from Henry VII. After James heard that Elizabeth had died (1603), he hot-footed it to London and never returned to Scotland. He took on the title James II of England. From the point of view of the English nobility, the War of the Roses would have erupted again had anybody else tried to claim the throne. Thereafter the monarch of England was also the monarch of Scotland. It was only in 1707 (104 years later) that the Act of Union took place and England and Scotland were merged under a single Parliament. Prior to that James VII of Scotland was also James II of England and WIlliam III of England was also WIlliam II of Scotland.

Seven years later (1714), after Queen Anne died, was the normal line of succession overriden and George I, Elector of Hannover and great-grandson of James I/VI became king. He continued to rule both Great Britain as king and Hannover as elector without the two countries being merged in any way. In 1807 the Elector of Hannover became King of Hannover and in 1837 the thrones were split when Hannovarian Law prevented a woman (Queen Victoria) from ascending the throne.

James I. Not sure whether he was strictly the closest in the line of succession, but Elizabeth's Privy Council saw the benefit in extending an invitation to take the throne. James II/VII was the one deposed for trying to re-catholicise England, fled overseas and was replaced by William (III) and Mary (II) in 1688.

According to Wikipedia, Henry VIII's line died out with the death of Elizabeth I. If we consult Wikipedia about Henry VII's children, we see that Henry VIII was the only son to reach full adulthood - Arthur, although married, died aged 15, had not consumated his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. The eldest of Henry VII's daughters was Margaret, grandmother of James VI/I. It therefore seems that if he was the legitimate King of Scotland, he was also heir to the throne of England.

If Arthur had actually consumated his marriage (and we only have Catherine's word that he did not) and Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was therefore illegal, James VI would still have been King of England, but Mary, Queen of Scots would have preceded him.

[KeithW]

James I. Not sure whether he was strictly the closest in the line of succession, but Elizabeth's Privy Council saw the benefit in extending an invitation to take the throne. James II/VII was the one deposed for trying to re-catholicise England, fled overseas and was replaced by William (III) and Mary (II) in 1688.

He was the closest acceptable i.e. Protestant, preferably male candidate but he also had the best claim. There were really only 2 candidates.

James VI of Scotland and his 3 children through Mary, Queen of Scots
Lady Arbella Stuart great-granddaughter of Margaret Tudor, through Margaret Douglas and Charles Stuart, Earl of Lennox.

The people who had really been ruling England for some time were Cecils – Elizabeth's Lord Treasurer, Lord Burghley, and his son, Secretary of State Sir Robert Cecil. It was they who decided that James VI was the best candidate and offered him the throne.

[Glenn A]

After the final turn off for Gretna on the A75, the A75 is effectively a motorway to the A74(M) as motorway regulations start as soon as you pass the junction.
Going back 50 years, the A74 and A75 met at the roundabout in the village opposite where Gretna Gateway is now. ( Apparently a hellish junction).

[Steven]

After the final turn off for Gretna on the A75, the A75 is effectively a motorway to the A74(M) as motorway regulations start as soon as you pass the junction.

That's not "effectively" a motorway, it is a motorway. That's what that sign means.

[Glenn A]

After the final turn off for Gretna on the A75, the A75 is effectively a motorway to the A74(M) as motorway regulations start as soon as you pass the junction.

That's not "effectively" a motorway, it is a motorway. That's what that sign means.

The A75(M), but not signposted as such.