What replaced super-primary?

[agc2070]

I read in another thread that super-primary destinations don’t exist any more, but it is still the case with new signs that a destination that is deemed more important will take precedence over primary destinations that are nearer.

London is the most obvious example but you have Dover and Channel Tunnel on the M20 which are signed before Maidstone, Ashford and Folkestone which are only signed one at a time as you go down the motorway. So there must be some kind of protocol that replaced super-primary destinations?

[Osthagen]

Another one is Preston, on the M6 especially. Heading south from J45, you’ll find Preston on nearly all directional and confirmation signage; firstly you get “Penrith, Preston”, then “Kendal, Preston” and then “Lancaster, Preston”. The southbound RCS at J45 lists “Preston 97”.

I don’t know what system allows for such prominence, but it seems to predate superprimary destinations, because when the M6 opened between J29 and J13, all of the directional signs northbound read “Preston”, no other signage north, and Preston was never a superprimary destination. Later on, Preston was replaced by more local destinations like “Stafford”, “Stoke”, “Liverpool” and “Manchester”.

Birmingham remains very very prominent on signs on the M6 heading south from J32, as it is on the adjoining section of eastbound M55. It probably appeared further up the M6 in earlier years, but that one actually was a superprimary destination.

[KeithW]

Given that the first motorway in Britain was the Preston bypass and that it was incorporated into the M6 its unsurprising that it appears on a lot of signs, the other factor of course is that the northern half of the M6 does not have that many other contenders as major destinations. It doesn't hurt that its roughly half way between Carlisle and the West Midlands either.

[Osthagen]

Given that the first motorway in Britain was the Preston bypass and that it was incorporated into the M6 its unsurprising that it appears on a lot of signs, the other factor of course is that the northern half of the M6 does not have that many other contenders as major destinations. It doesn't hurt that its roughly half way between Carlisle and the West Midlands either.

Preston is of course a major motorway hub, where the M6 meets the M55, M61 and M65, too.

You'd think that Warrington and Wigan would be prominently signed from the M6. Warrington, one of the largest settlements in the North West, is of particular strategic importance, because a lot of M6 traffic will be switching motorways in that area, joining the M62 for Liverpool and Merseyside as well as the M56 for Chester, North Wales and the Wirrall. Meanwhile, Wigan is another big place where traffic leaves at J29 onto the M58, again for Liverpool, much of Merseyside and Southport. However, you don't seem to get an indication of these places until you get really near. Wigan should really appear on RC signage southbound after J36, once Kendal ceases to be a destination and as the next major turnoff after Preston.

Manchester and Liverpool on the M62 westbound is another example of what the OP is referring to. Manchester appears on all directional signs heading west from J34 with the A19, with little mention of Bradford, Huddersfield or Rochdale until you get close to them, while Liverpool is featured on RCS signage from J25 westwards, though places like Warrington and Bolton are closer.

[Bryn666]

When the M6 first opened at Warrington it was a relatively small and unimportant town on the A49. It hadn't even been designated a new town until much later.

[Osthagen]

When the M6 first opened at Warrington it was a relatively small and unimportant town on the A49. It hadn't even been designated a new town until much later.

Exactly and I just don’t think our signage has ever really caught up with the 21st Century.

[stu531]

I agree with this. City signage seems totally inconsistent. If I drive around the NW, it seems to have more relevant signage than over this side of the hills in Yorks. For instance, leaving the M1 north of Lofthouse, signage reverts to Wetherby, York and - later - Scotch Corner. Although there are no major destinations between Leeds and the Tees Valley, I would've thought that Teeside or Darlington ought to be marked from West Yorks, rather than Scotch Corner - even though it's an important junction. It comes back to the idea: what should a designation be?

Likewise, Sheffield doesn't appear on hardly any signs in West Yorks until you get south of Wakefield. If you think of Leeds and Sheffield as being as equally significant as Manchester and Liverpool on this side, it's totally inconsistent.

[Osthagen]

Super-primary destinations were replaced by target destinations.

[wrinkly]

Back in the days when super primary destinations existed, there seem to have been some places that were treated as semi-super-primary. For example the A556 SWwards from Manchester was signed for Chester, though Northwich was primary and Chester was not super-primary.

[Osthagen]

Back in the days when super primary destinations existed, there seem to have been some places that were treated as semi-super-primary. For example the A556 SWwards from Manchester was signed for Chester, though Northwich was primary and Chester was not super-primary.

Preston and Carlisle also seem to be examples of this.

The Scottish system of primary destination signage seems to treat some destinations as 'first among equals', regardless of whether they were super-primary or not. For example, Perth was never a super-primary destination, but it is signed with special prominence going south on the A90 from Aberdeen, when Forfar and Dundee come first.

I think we are better off adopting something similar to the French equivalent. Instead of having 'non-primary' or 'primary' (or 'super-primary'), France has 5 tiers into which destinations on the road network are divided. 5 contains the most important places (Lyon, Nantes, Paris, Toulouse, etc), whereas 1 contains destinations of mainly local importance. 4 and 5-category destinations are generally featured as the main forward destinations on motorways, with the category 3 destinations being listed on RCSs only.

[agc2070]

Super-primary destinations were replaced by target destinations.

Is there a definitive list of these anywhere?

[Bryn666]

Super-primary destinations were replaced by target destinations.

Is there a definitive list of these anywhere?

LTN 1/94 has them, they're transcribed on the SABRE wiki.

[Conekicker]

Super-primary destinations were replaced by target destinations.

Is there a definitive list of these anywhere?

LTN 1/94 has them, they're transcribed on the SABRE wiki.

And this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... -route.pdf

[Bomag]

Ignoring the fact that many sign designers don't know what they are doing the proper order is

1. Target destinations- Regions, or other routes e.g. M25.
2. Suitable primary destinations, often the next two but could be the nearest and next but one. e.g. M1 from Leeds Wakefield+Sheffield and then Barnsley+ Sheffield rather than Wakefield+Barnsley.

The use of primary destinations as target destinations (super-primary) was the hot thing in the 1990's but testing found the ever decreasing geographical knowledge of the UK public meant that they were much less effective than using regional destinations (I think something like 40% of Londoners did not know if Birmingham was north or south of Manchester).

The continued omission of TSM Chapter 2 and the death of IAN 146 has left a gaping hole in design guidance. It is not helped by the insistence by a few that a strategy which make sense to them should automatically be made to be understood by the general public.

[Bryn666]

How the hell do 40% of Londoners come out of school and not know where Birmingham is in relation to the capital? Either that's quite a shocking indictment on the education system there or just proof that people seem to think nothing exists beyond the M25.

Of course given those counting beans are quite happy to just replace old and out of date signs like for like because it's too hard to engage in doing a proper review as that costs money we can always just blame sign designers for being told not to bother can't we...

[exiled]

How the hell do 40% of Londoners come out of school and not know where Birmingham is in relation to the capital? Either that's quite a shocking indictment on the education system there or just proof that people seem to think nothing exists beyond the M25.

Of course given those counting beans are quite happy to just replace old and out of date signs like for like because it's too hard to engage in doing a proper review as that costs money we can always just blame sign designers for being told not to bother can't we...

Don't kids today read the Collins Road Atlas for fun anymore?

[Osthagen]

LTN 1/94 has them, they're transcribed on the SABRE wiki.

The problem is, as with regional destinations, so-called primary 'target' destinations are not used properly or suitably, certainly not on roads in England and Wales. On the M1, for example, Wakefield is signed as if its equal in a strategic context to Sheffield, or on the A1(M) especially southbound where the signs act as if you'll fall off the map once you reach Scotch Corner. You end up with the situation in which 21st century inter-urban motorways, or HQ A-roads with motorway levels of traffic, are signed as if they are 1950s trunk roads.

In Scotland, it's pretty much been sussed out: have a set of primary destinations that are 'primus inter pares'. You get a certain number of destinations that are (rightly) signed with special prominence, for example, although Perth isn't on-paper a higher level of PD than Montrose or Forfar, it gets priority on signage on the A90 South from Aberdeen over either of those; because it's more useful to long-distance traffic! Aberdeen gets similar treatment on the road north from Perth.
As for those destinations, they seem to be:
Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, Perth, Stirling, Thurso
I would simply add Stranraer to that list.

In England and Wales, I'd opt for these super-targets, doing a similar job to the Scottish destinations mentioned above, they'd be spread around the country, mainly on major long-distance M-ways and A-roads, and you'd always sign at least 1 on such routes:
Aberystwyth, Bangor, Birmingham, Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Carlisle, Dover, Felixstowe, Fishguard, Holyhead, Hull, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, London, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Peterborough, Preston, Southampton

Plus, the following would have semi-super status:
Cambridge, Chester, Doncaster, Nottingham, Sheffield, Stoke-on-Trent, Teesside

[C83]

LTN 1/94 has them, they're transcribed on the SABRE wiki.

The problem is, as with regional destinations, so-called primary 'target' destinations are not used properly or suitably, certainly not on roads in England and Wales. On the M1, for example, Wakefield is signed as if its equal in a strategic context to Sheffield, or on the A1(M) especially southbound where the signs act as if you'll fall off the map once you reach Scotch Corner. You end up with the situation in which 21st century inter-urban motorways, or HQ A-roads with motorway levels of traffic, are signed as if they are 1950s trunk roads.

In Scotland, it's pretty much been sussed out: have a set of primary destinations that are 'primus inter pares'. You get a certain number of destinations that are (rightly) signed with special prominence, for example, although Perth isn't on-paper a higher level of PD than Montrose or Forfar, it gets priority on signage on the A90 South from Aberdeen over either of those; because it's more useful to long-distance traffic! Aberdeen gets similar treatment on the road north from Perth.
As for those destinations, they seem to be:
Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, Perth, Stirling, Thurso
I would simply add Stranraer to that list.

In England and Wales, I'd opt for these super-targets, doing a similar job to the Scottish destinations mentioned above, they'd be spread around the country, mainly on major long-distance M-ways and A-roads, and you'd always sign at least 1 on such routes:
Aberystwyth, Bangor, Birmingham, Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Carlisle, Dover, Felixstowe, Fishguard, Holyhead, Hull, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, London, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Peterborough, Preston, Southampton

Plus, the following would have semi-super status:
Cambridge, Chester, Doncaster, Nottingham, Sheffield, Stoke-on-Trent, Teesside

The oddity in Scotland is that Forth Road Bridge, a useful direction marker, has been relegated in favour of Perth, Dundee rather than replaced by Queensferry Crossing.

[Conekicker]

It's not impossible for DfT/NH to create a signing strategy, detailing exactly which destinations should be signed where along the strategic network. Obviously it would take some time, (2 to 3 years if suitably well staffed?), but would be well worth doing as it would remove some of the nonsense that has been mentioned above.

It just needs the will and budget to do it. A one time investment to give the country a robust directional signing system that should last for decades, surely a good investment. It happened in London, why not the rest of the country?

Oh and a suitably competent consultant to actually carry out the work. Now there's an ever so tiny, hardly worth mentioning fly in the ointment...

[Berk]

How the hell do 40% of Londoners come out of school and not know where Birmingham is in relation to the capital? Either that's quite a shocking indictment on the education system there or just proof that people seem to think nothing exists beyond the M25.

Of course given those counting beans are quite happy to just replace old and out of date signs like for like because it's too hard to engage in doing a proper review as that costs money we can always just blame sign designers for being told not to bother can't we...

Unfortunately the evidence seems to bear both of these out…