M49 - link to nowhere

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Steven
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Steven »

Jonathan B4027 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 15:56 How is it signposted on the M49 or is it not currently/patched?
And are there now actually a set of M49 chopsticks?
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 14:33
jervi wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 13:54 The cycle/pedestrian provision at that junction must be the best at any trunk road junction in the UK.

Zero conflict with motor traffic & grade separated from the gyratory & sliproads. It also probably added £5m onto the cost of the scheme.
The roundabout has to be elevated above the motorway anyway, so there are no additional works to slot an NMU route through as they have done, it probably was peanuts to add this to a new build junction.

It's retrofitting this stuff that is the expensive nightmare, which is another reason to get things right first time and stop doing piecemeal crud. Cough Switch Island.
True, but it isn't usual to see the path on a different elevation to the gyratory. Normally there is just a path around the outside of gyratory, crossing over the slip roads, or have crossings to the inside of the gyratory. Neither being great for NMUs.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Jonathan B4027 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 15:56 How is it signposted on the M49 or is it not currently/patched?
Signs are up, but have huge black coverplates so what's underneath is completely unknown. What's most interesting to me is that there's clearly a road heading east from the junction signposted, and yet as far as I know there's no expansion to the Avomnouth estate planned that side of the motorway or any form of link road to the B4055 planned.
Steven wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 16:04 And are there now actually a set of M49 chopsticks?
Yes :)
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:29 I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
I've asked the same, apparently it's an innovative new construction type that reduces the amount of imported fill for earthworks. So far so good, but it doesn't half look ugly. If you're going to do this why not just do what the Americans do and have flyovers with no earthworks?
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by darkcape »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:33
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:29 I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
If you're going to do this why not just do what the Americans do and have flyovers with no earthworks?
Because structural concrete is about £90/m3 vs £5/m3 for reinforced earth fill, for a start :wink:
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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darkcape wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:52
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:33
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:29 I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
If you're going to do this why not just do what the Americans do and have flyovers with no earthworks?
Because structural concrete is about £90/m3 vs £5/m3 for reinforced earth fill, for a start :wink:
Of course, that budget has to be saved for smart gantry foundations the size of Luxembourg instead... :twisted:
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Jonathan B4027 »

DavidBrown wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 16:15
Jonathan B4027 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 15:56 How is it signposted on the M49 or is it not currently/patched?
Signs are up, but have huge black coverplates so what's underneath is completely unknown. What's most interesting to me is that there's clearly a road heading east from the junction signposted, and yet as far as I know there's no expansion to the Avomnouth estate planned that side of the motorway or any form of link road to the B4055 planned.
The sign at the exit doesn't look that wide, possibly (A403)??
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:29I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
The area around the M49 is below high tide level and is an alluvial plain of little inherent strength with a high watertable very similar to the Moors and Levels further south in Somerset that the M5 crosses.
The key to minimising any effects on the M49 carriageway itself from building the slip roads is to keep their weight down and their zone of influence as small as possible outside the footprint of the slip road earthworks and minimise the possibility of any heave or sideways movement of the alluvium outside the embankment affecting the main carriageway.
Hence steepened slopes using smaller quantities of higher quality fill material usually combined with geotextiles or straps as reinforced soil or reinforced earth (although that is trademarked). The fill is possibly lightweight (lytag or similar but I would have to read up to be sure) to further minimise the weight of the embankment.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Gareth Thomas »

DavidBrown wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 15:56
Steven wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 16:04 And are there now actually a set of M49 chopsticks?
Yes :)
The M49 FINALLY gets its chopsticks - and no-one will be able to see them.

I do actually feel sorry for the M49! :-P

I hope that this shambles is sorted out soon, whether it be speed restrictions on the A403 to make it more difficult, or a mystery benefactor offering to build the link road for poor, cash-strapped Amazon.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:33
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 19:29 I'd be interested to know if there's a particular reason the roundabout, and its sliproads, are built up onto steep retaining walls, rather than on embankments which would be more usual. I've never seen a junction built like that before.
I've asked the same, apparently it's an innovative new construction type that reduces the amount of imported fill for earthworks. So far so good, but it doesn't half look ugly. If you're going to do this why not just do what the Americans do and have flyovers with no earthworks?
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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There'll be a box shed built right up against it before it opens no doubt so be reet...
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Hdeng16 »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:33 There'll be a box shed built right up against it before it opens no doubt so be reet...
Amazon already on site :D

Joking aside, I'd say amazon are key to this - surely it was in their terms?
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by jackal »

I doubt Amazon or anyone else is required to build the road. See HE quote in my post above where they hope someone will build some connecting roads, one day, maybe.

A possibility is that the owners of that strip of land (not Amazon or any other household name) are holding out for a big payday.

A further complication is that some of these retailers and logistics firms won't own their warehouses so would be hesitant to pay for improved connections. Likewise, there's no reason for the landlords to pay for them when the leases are already agreed.

Given one or more of the above it's not hard to see how we end up in a 'waiting for Godot' situation.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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jackal wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 09:55 I doubt Amazon or anyone else is required to build the road.

...

A further complication is that some of these retailers and logistics firms won't own their warehouses so would be hesitant to pay for improved connections. Likewise, there's no reason for the landlords to pay for them when the leases are already agreed.
That's not quite true as a generalisation - there are often conditions attached to development from the planning perspective,e.g. to force construction of link roads once occupancy is at a certain level. Similarly, if you are being leased a warehouse that is advertised as being in a prime location next to a planned motorway junction, there would usually be some sort of get-out or conditions in the lease to do with construction of access roads.

If none of the above are true in this case, more fool the planning authority and the occupiers of the sheds.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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c2R wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:28
jackal wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 09:55 I doubt Amazon or anyone else is required to build the road.

...

A further complication is that some of these retailers and logistics firms won't own their warehouses so would be hesitant to pay for improved connections. Likewise, there's no reason for the landlords to pay for them when the leases are already agreed.
That's not quite true as a generalisation - there are often conditions attached to development from the planning perspective,e.g. to force construction of link roads once occupancy is at a certain level. Similarly, if you are being leased a warehouse that is advertised as being in a prime location next to a planned motorway junction, there would usually be some sort of get-out or conditions in the lease to do with construction of access roads.

If none of the above are true in this case, more fool the planning authority and the occupiers of the sheds.
My point is that at least some of the usual conditionality seems to be absent in this case:

"We've completed the construction of the new junction which will now allow local developers to build connecting roads into the stubs of the junction once they’re ready" (HE scheme page)

That doesn't sound like construction of the links is legally watertight to me.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Bryn666 »

Surprised HE would build a junction without the associated S278s being in place, unless they're now that incompetent that they can't even negotiate that...
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by Hdeng16 »

jackal wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 09:55 I doubt Amazon or anyone else is required to build the road. See HE quote in my post above where they hope someone will build some connecting roads, one day, maybe.

A possibility is that the owners of that strip of land (not Amazon or any other household name) are holding out for a big payday.

A further complication is that some of these retailers and logistics firms won't own their warehouses so would be hesitant to pay for improved connections. Likewise, there's no reason for the landlords to pay for them when the leases are already agreed.

Given one or more of the above it's not hard to see how we end up in a 'waiting for Godot' situation.
I think you've missed my point - I meant amazon might be key to getting the landowners/leaseholders/whoever to build the road. The majority of their distro's are just off the motorway network (with exceptions). I imagine they chose this location for that reason - so may have some power to push for it to be completed.

I wasn't expecting Jeff on site to break ground.
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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

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Bryn666 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 14:10 Surprised HE would build a junction without the associated S278s being in place, unless they're now that incompetent that they can't even negotiate that...
I'd be very surprised if HE are funding this themselves. From a strategic point of view, the M49 is a pair of glorified slip roads linking the Welsh section of the M4 with the south-west section of the M5. The only case for building an intermediate junction is to promote regeneration of Avonmouth. While there may be public sector funding involved, this will come from growth funds rather than from any strategic transport budget, and I'm pretty sure there is an obligation on some of the developers in the area to at least part fund the junction and the links. Speculation on my part, but it will be more than just Amazon that has to pay for this and it is conceivable that the local authority has had to borrow against future funding contributions associated with wider development in the area.

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Re: M49 - link to nowhere

Post by jackal »

M4Simon wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 14:46
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 14:10 Surprised HE would build a junction without the associated S278s being in place, unless they're now that incompetent that they can't even negotiate that...
I'd be very surprised if HE are funding this themselves. From a strategic point of view, the M49 is a pair of glorified slip roads linking the Welsh section of the M4 with the south-west section of the M5. The only case for building an intermediate junction is to promote regeneration of Avonmouth. While there may be public sector funding involved, this will come from growth funds rather than from any strategic transport budget, and I'm pretty sure there is an obligation on some of the developers in the area to at least part fund the junction and the links. Speculation on my part, but it will be more than just Amazon that has to pay for this and it is conceivable that the local authority has had to borrow against future funding contributions associated with wider development in the area.

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