Whatever happened to Expressways?

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thatapanydude
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by thatapanydude »

DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 19:55 And I will never stop carrying the torch for conventional widening with new intermittent hard shoulders instead of demolishing structures anyway and putting in gantries.
Likewise I agree. To have smart motorways costing as much as normal widening is a joke - the M4 scheme of widening bridges for only ALR is likewise ridiculous.

I will be writing to the DfT now that the A1(M) SM has been delayed in Welwyn to reconsider a full widening job even if only up-to J7.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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ManomayLR
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by ManomayLR »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 20:11
DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 19:55 And I will never stop carrying the torch for conventional widening with new intermittent hard shoulders instead of demolishing structures anyway and putting in gantries.
Likewise I agree. To have smart motorways costing as much as normal widening is a joke - the M4 scheme of widening bridges for only ALR is likewise ridiculous.
In 2008 the M1 was widened between J6A and J10. Interestingly, full bridge reconstruction took place, with continuous hard shoulders, meaning it will be easy to change the motorway into 5-lane ALR if needed. MS4s are easy to retrofit on to existing VSL/lane control gantries, a concrete barrier with LED lighting is already installed, and installation of emergency refuge areas is the only disruptive work that needs to take place.
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thatapanydude
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by thatapanydude »

EpicChef wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 20:39
thatapanydude wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 20:11
DB617 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 19:55 And I will never stop carrying the torch for conventional widening with new intermittent hard shoulders instead of demolishing structures anyway and putting in gantries.
Likewise I agree. To have smart motorways costing as much as normal widening is a joke - the M4 scheme of widening bridges for only ALR is likewise ridiculous.
In 2008 the M1 was widened between J6A and J10. Interestingly, full bridge reconstruction took place, with continuous hard shoulders, meaning it will be easy to change the motorway into 5-lane ALR if needed. MS4s are easy to retrofit on to existing VSL/lane control gantries, a concrete barrier with LED lighting is already installed, and installation of emergency refuge areas is the only disruptive work that needs to take place.
It would probably be better to upgrade the A1 and M11 than to have D5 ALR (which is also ridiculous too considering the position D4 ALR). Take strategic traffic to the north via the A1/M11 and midlands via the M11/A14 & M40 and leave the M1 for MK to M25 traffic.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
JF2309
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by JF2309 »

I think the best way to settle this is to just build big D4M Bypass roads, arrow straight, for the length of the country, always travelling to the next nearest settlement of over 50,000 people and have 3 Junctions for each settlement. One North or East, One Central, One South or West depending on the direction of the road and be done with it. Build them through whatever habitats they need to go through, so not deviate for Frogs or National Parks.

All in favour of my Military Junta reply with ‘Aye’.

Unless the above happens its all very circular as a debate, its very stale too.
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ManomayLR
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by ManomayLR »

JF2309 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 02:47 I think the best way to settle this is to just build big D4M Bypass roads, arrow straight, for the length of the country, always travelling to the next nearest settlement of over 50,000 people and have 3 Junctions for each settlement. One North or East, One Central, One South or West depending on the direction of the road and be done with it. Build them through whatever habitats they need to go through, so not deviate for Frogs or National Parks.

All in favour of my Military Junta reply with ‘Aye’.

Unless the above happens its all very circular as a debate, its very stale too.
That would work as long as viaducts, tunnels or alternative routes are planned through national parks and habitats
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by JF2309 »

It wouldn’t work, it would.....

Theres always one isn’t there? Always at least one.
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wrinkly
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by wrinkly »

When was the last time DfT or National Highways England Agency said anything about expressways? Is the concept going out of fashion again?
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 23:51 When was the last time DfT or National Highways England Agency said anything about expressways? Is the concept going out of fashion again?
It disappeared along with the project it was associated with - The Oxford Cambridge Expressway.
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KeithW
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW »

JF2309 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 02:47 I think the best way to settle this is to just build big D4M Bypass roads, arrow straight, for the length of the country, always travelling to the next nearest settlement of over 50,000 people and have 3 Junctions for each settlement. One North or East, One Central, One South or West depending on the direction of the road and be done with it. Build them through whatever habitats they need to go through, so not deviate for Frogs or National Parks.

All in favour of my Military Junta reply with ‘Aye’.

Unless the above happens its all very circular as a debate, its very stale too.
Nay.

Its a daft idea, roads dont follow straight lines for very good reasons like stuff being in the way, you know mountains. rivers , estuaries, cathedrals etc. Lots of luck finding a viable arrow straight road from Sheffield to Manchester for example.

The idea of high quality routes that don't have to be special roads isn't new. The A19 is getting an upgrade right now as its actually busier than the A1(M) Darlington and Durham bypasses these days. It is in many ways becoming an Expressway between the A1(M) at Dishforth serving the conurbations of Middlesbrough, Stockton/Billlingham. Sunderland Jarrow/Tynemouth before reaching the A1 north of Tyneside.

Then there is the A1 Western bypass of course, not really Expressway material but it has potential.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Bryn666 »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 23:51 When was the last time DfT or National Highways England Agency said anything about expressways? Is the concept going out of fashion again?
Deader than disco, I'd say, although the LTC is going to be one, they'll just come up with a new propaganda glossy PDF name for it.
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astondb9
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by astondb9 »

I've just noticed Google Maps has its own version of UK expressways, if you zoom out to show most of the country, you can see certain A roads are shown more clearly than others (A1, A14, A34, A55, A9). If you use cycling directions, they will avoid these roads where possible, but not walking strangely.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by jackal »

astondb9 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 13:52 I've just noticed Google Maps has its own version of UK expressways, if you zoom out to show most of the country, you can see certain A roads are shown more clearly than others (A1, A14, A34, A55, A9). If you use cycling directions, they will avoid these roads where possible, but not walking strangely.
I think it's based on the E-road network, hence some low quality roads like the A1 in Northumberland and the Borders, the A9 in the Highlands, the A40 in Pembrokeshire, and A69 and A75 are included. Though there seem to be some extras as well.
JF2309
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by JF2309 »

KeithW wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:01
JF2309 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 02:47 I think the best way to settle this is to just build big D4M Bypass roads, arrow straight, for the length of the country, always travelling to the next nearest settlement of over 50,000 people and have 3 Junctions for each settlement. One North or East, One Central, One South or West depending on the direction of the road and be done with it. Build them through whatever habitats they need to go through, so not deviate for Frogs or National Parks.

All in favour of my Military Junta reply with ‘Aye’.

Unless the above happens its all very circular as a debate, its very stale too.
Nay.

Its a daft idea, roads dont follow straight lines for very good reasons like stuff being in the way, you know mountains. rivers , estuaries, cathedrals etc. Lots of luck finding a viable arrow straight road from Sheffield to Manchester for example.

The idea of high quality routes that don't have to be special roads isn't new. The A19 is getting an upgrade right now as its actually busier than the A1(M) Darlington and Durham bypasses these days. It is in many ways becoming an Expressway between the A1(M) at Dishforth serving the conurbations of Middlesbrough, Stockton/Billlingham. Sunderland Jarrow/Tynemouth before reaching the A1 north of Tyneside.

Then there is the A1 Western bypass of course, not really Expressway material but it has potential.
I’m quite proud to have extracted such a lengthy response to something I posted over a year ago, that I loaded with sarcasm and wrote in jest.

Another one for my CV.
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JonB2028
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by JonB2028 »

Yes, expressway is now a dirty word. I suspect the relevant standard (GD 300) will be revised in due course to remove reference to the offending word.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by NICK 647063 »

jackal wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 14:08
astondb9 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 13:52 I've just noticed Google Maps has its own version of UK expressways, if you zoom out to show most of the country, you can see certain A roads are shown more clearly than others (A1, A14, A34, A55, A9). If you use cycling directions, they will avoid these roads where possible, but not walking strangely.
I think it's based on the E-road network, hence some low quality roads like the A1 in Northumberland and the Borders, the A9 in the Highlands, the A40 in Pembrokeshire, and A69 and A75 are included. Though there seem to be some extras as well.
I’m not sure it is! If you look the A64 is shown right from Leeds city centre to Seamer it one of these clearer routes but not an E road, I’m not sure how these roads are selected but if you put google live traffic on and zoom out the traffic is shown on these routes for longer than the other A roads, A69 is also one of these but not A66 or A168/A19.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW »

NICK 647063 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 21:43 I’m not sure it is! If you look the A64 is shown right from Leeds city centre to Seamer it one of these clearer routes but not an E road, I’m not sure how these roads are selected but if you put google live traffic on and zoom out the traffic is shown on these routes for longer than the other A roads, A69 is also one of these but not A66 or A168/A19.
That is because the E roads are by definition long distance international routes. The E15 covers this route

Inverness – Perth – Edinburgh – Newcastle – London – Folkestone – Dover … Calais – Paris – Lyon – Orange – Narbonne – Girona – Barcelona – Tarragona – Castellón de la Plana – Valencia – Alicante – Murcia – Almería – Málaga – Algeciras
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by thomas417 »

I always liked the concept of Expressways with the blue signs, and Ax(M) designation so sad to see they seem to have bitten the dust. It's quite a turn around as there were full press releases about how the A14(M) would be the first and then it was silently ditched.

Personally I still see the need for high quality routes to be highlighted, the fact the A64(M) in Leeds is more prominent than the A64 past York is just absurd.

I'd be happy for even just blue signs to be introduced for high quality routes and leave off the (M).
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by solocle »

thomas417 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 13:38 I always liked the concept of Expressways with the blue signs, and Ax(M) designation so sad to see they seem to have bitten the dust. It's quite a turn around as there were full press releases about how the A14(M) would be the first and then it was silently ditched.

Personally I still see the need for high quality routes to be highlighted, the fact the A64(M) in Leeds is more prominent than the A64 past York is just absurd.

I'd be happy for even just blue signs to be introduced for high quality routes and leave off the (M).
Personally, I'd suggest a more radical solution.

Overnight redesignate HQDCs an Ax(M) road number.

However, treat these just like Spanish autovias. By default, all traffic is allowed. Pedestrians, cyclists... They must use the hard shoulder if appropriate (a proper width, say, 2m, smooth, not covered in debris. And seeing how I've done >40 mph on DCs, that should be allowed on the carriageway, as otherwise you may end up with some overtaking on the left). This should be reflected by not using the motorway symbol, but rather, perhaps the autopista symbol.

Admittedly there are problems regarding existing Ax(M) motorways, but they keep their chopsticks. And I'd quite like to see a review here - the A1(M) J49 to J50 doesn't have an obvious alternative. Downgrade it to an autopista until an alternative is provided for non-motorway traffic.

Meanwhile you get an A14(M), A64(M), an A34(M) south of Oxford, and A303(M) from the M3 to Amesbury, A27(M) linking the A3(M) and M27, and onward toward Chichester. Much of the A2 and A3 become the A2(M) and A3(M), and a good chunk of the A1 becomes A1(M).

Of course some definition of HQDC is needed - no at grade junctions, for instance.

The advantages are that high quality routes are still a blue line on the map, which also indicates to NMUs that they should consider the route carefully, while being a pretty easy change of colour and addition of (M).

A separate numbering system would of course be more obvious.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by KeithW »

thomas417 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 13:38 I always liked the concept of Expressways with the blue signs, and Ax(M) designation so sad to see they seem to have bitten the dust. It's quite a turn around as there were full press releases about how the A14(M) would be the first and then it was silently ditched.

Personally I still see the need for high quality routes to be highlighted, the fact the A64(M) in Leeds is more prominent than the A64 past York is just absurd.

I'd be happy for even just blue signs to be introduced for high quality routes and leave off the (M).
We have roads with blue signs and Ax(M) designations - we call them Motorways. As for the A64(M) its rather poor quality and very short. The reality is however the A64 past York is even worse and is not even close to Expressway standard with its flat junctions and businesses that have direct access to the road.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.92071 ... 8192?hl=en

and then there are the S2 sections

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9972, ... 8192?hl=en

And of course being a long established All Purpose Road you cannot arbitrarily close it to non Motorway traffic without providing an alternate route.
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Re: Whatever happened to Expressways?

Post by Rambo »

All of Runcorns' expressways are still listed as such on most modern maps. Weston Point, Southern, Bridgewater & Daresbury expressways. Also some signage too albeit some old https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3488341 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3454903 ... 384!8i8192
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