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Scratchwood wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:26
This bus lane sign for example on the A406 is very clear, 7am to 7pm only. Hence the lorry using it (presumably outside the hours )
The sun is low in the east, and given the number of parked cars, a summer morning before 7am is quite possible. So I wondered if a little farther ahead there may be billboard with a clock. A completely pointless exercise, but a puzzle to pass a few minutes.
Here's something else of interest from the same vantage point as the bus lane. This is an earlier view and take a look at the windows on one of the houses. This has got to be more effective than triple glazing at keeping out traffic noise https://goo.gl/maps/HkURx5urENh7B3T37
How would you like your grade separations, Sir? Big and complex.
Scratchwood wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:26
This bus lane sign for example on the A406 is very clear, 7am to 7pm only.
Having driven along that stretch this morning, I can confirm that the signage has now been updated to "at any time".
That initially caught me out last night, as there was no prewarning that the bus lane rules had been changed. I quickly moved out of course when I saw the new signs
Scratchwood wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:26
This bus lane sign for example on the A406 is very clear, 7am to 7pm only.
Having driven along that stretch this morning, I can confirm that the signage has now been updated to "at any time".
That initially caught me out last night, as there was no prewarning that the bus lane rules had been changed. I quickly moved out of course when I saw the new signs
My dad seems to have found Capital Gold on DAB in his van, so every time I've driven it I've been bombarded with radio adverts that the bus lanes were changing. I suspect TfL have had posters up at bus stops in shelters as well.
As you pointed out, once you noticed the sign you moved out of the lane. Drivers should observe signs even if the route is familiar because changes do happen and it's entirely incumbent on you as a road user to be aware of them, highway engineers are not obliged to hold your hand after all.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
BigBazz wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 08:52
Having driven along that stretch this morning, I can confirm that the signage has now been updated to "at any time".
That initially caught me out last night, as there was no prewarning that the bus lane rules had been changed. I quickly moved out of course when I saw the new signs
My dad seems to have found Capital Gold on DAB in his van, so every time I've driven it I've been bombarded with radio adverts that the bus lanes were changing. I suspect TfL have had posters up at bus stops in shelters as well.
As you pointed out, once you noticed the sign you moved out of the lane. Drivers should observe signs even if the route is familiar because changes do happen and it's entirely incumbent on you as a road user to be aware of them, highway engineers are not obliged to hold your hand after all.
On the other hand, when junctions are changed, even if it's a minor bit of repainting or traffic light rephasing, advisory signs are usually installed to let people know in advance.
As a regular bus user, it's often loading bays which are far more disruptive to traffic flows anyway, and they won't be abolished. A bus lane becomes pointless if a delivery lorry is blocking it
That initially caught me out last night, as there was no prewarning that the bus lane rules had been changed. I quickly moved out of course when I saw the new signs
My dad seems to have found Capital Gold on DAB in his van, so every time I've driven it I've been bombarded with radio adverts that the bus lanes were changing. I suspect TfL have had posters up at bus stops in shelters as well.
As you pointed out, once you noticed the sign you moved out of the lane. Drivers should observe signs even if the route is familiar because changes do happen and it's entirely incumbent on you as a road user to be aware of them, highway engineers are not obliged to hold your hand after all.
On the other hand, when junctions are changed, even if it's a minor bit of repainting or traffic light rephasing, advisory signs are usually installed to let people know in advance.
As a regular bus user, it's often loading bays which are far more disruptive to traffic flows anyway, and they won't be abolished. A bus lane becomes pointless if a delivery lorry is blocking it
Those of us with a signs background hate "New Road Layout Ahead" signs for one simple reason:
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
Those of us with a signs background hate "New Road Layout Ahead" signs for one simple reason:
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
Yes but there's a third possibility that you use the junction occasionally so it's familiar but you haven't seen the change happening. In these situations I find the warning useful.
For example this junction changed from thisto this so being warned it had changed since my previous visit was helpful.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
Those of us with a signs background hate "New Road Layout Ahead" signs for one simple reason:
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
Yes but there's a third possibility that you use the junction occasionally so it's familiar but you haven't seen the change happening. In these situations I find the warning useful.
For example this junction changed from thisto this so being warned it had changed since my previous visit was helpful.
Yes but how long do you want a "New x" sign to be up for? It's not a new layout if it's been there for more than 3 months. Your eyes are the best weapon to find out what the road layout is, don't rely on a tiny red sign that is meaningless.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
There are also people who know the road but don't use it very often, so the sign is useful for them. Admittedly not a very large proportion of road users
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
There are also people who know the road but don't use it very often, so the sign is useful for them. Admittedly not a very large proportion of road users
I would put it on the same level as a bus or train operator putting new timetables in the display cases without announcing that they were changing.
You can make as many smug little posts as you like saying that people should carefully study every piece of street furniture every morning as they drive to work just in case something has changed overnight but the truth is that they learn the route and get on with driving.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
There are also people who know the road but don't use it very often, so the sign is useful for them. Admittedly not a very large proportion of road users
I would put it on the same level as a bus or train operator putting new timetables in the display cases without announcing that they were changing.
You can make as many smug little posts as you like saying that people should carefully study every piece of street furniture every morning as they drive to work just in case something has changed overnight but the truth is that they learn the route and get on with driving.
Part of driving IS studying "every piece of street furniture" that conveys a message to you.
Worrying to see that people on SABRE are happy to admit to careless or even dangerous driving. Roll on mandatory re-testing.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
In most cases the only place you can locate extra signage is in the bus lanes themselves. And if people are already ignoring the changed bus lanes signs, how likely are they to look at signs saying to look at the signs?
Besides which, the empty space created by placing one line of text in the centre of a panel that previously held two lines does stand out. I have still only made limited trips outside since lockdown began, not as a road user (vehicle issues), yet and they have jumped out at me even though I have made no conscious effort to look at them.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 17:08
Part of driving IS studying "every piece of street furniture" that conveys a message to you.
Worrying to see that people on SABRE are happy to admit to careless or even dangerous driving. Roll on mandatory re-testing.
There are places such as where gyratories have been removed in London where you need to be on the other side of the road for some directions compared to the previous layout. Some advanced warning that things have changed is useful, and not at all careless
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 17:08
Part of driving IS studying "every piece of street furniture" that conveys a message to you.
Worrying to see that people on SABRE are happy to admit to careless or even dangerous driving. Roll on mandatory re-testing.
There are places such as where gyratories have been removed in London where you need to be on the other side of the road for some directions compared to the previous layout. Some advanced warning that things have changed is useful, and not at all careless
You mean the advance direction signs and road markings then, not a poxy "new road layout ahead" sign?
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 20:42
You mean the advance direction signs and road markings then, not a poxy "new road layout ahead" sign?
Yes in an ideal world, but they tend to be non-existent in towns
I've been round several of London's revised junctions and not had any major issue with the signposting. The real problem here is people pretending driving on auto-pilot is acceptable when it is not. Even the road you live on should never be driven on auto-pilot, this is why the majority of road collisions occur within a driver's local area because frankly complacency kills.
I am unapologetic about how much "I didn't know the road changed" infuriates me. It's bad driving pure and simple.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Agreed, which is why putting up bright red signs warning people seems to me eminently sensible. Because people are complacent, and it is surely better to try and mitigate that unavoidable fact than wish it away
Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:44
Those of us with a signs background hate "New Road Layout Ahead" signs for one simple reason:
If you're local, you'll have seen the road change. If you're not local, you won't know what the old layout was anyway. They're just pointless clutter.
Yes but there's a third possibility that you use the junction occasionally so it's familiar but you haven't seen the change happening. In these situations I find the warning useful.
For example this junction changed from thisto this so being warned it had changed since my previous visit was helpful.
Exactly.
Yes drivers should read every sign. But drivers also need to be concentrating on road traffic, cyclists and pedestrians, hence a bit of advance warning is very helpful, to let them know to pay extra attention to the upcoming signage.
Agreed, which is why putting up bright red signs warning people seems to me eminently sensible. Because people are complacent, and it is surely better to try and mitigate that unavoidable fact than wish it away
But that red sign doesn't tell you anything. It just tells you there's a changed layout ahead so you still need to read the road and other signs anyway.
And if the sign is there for 18 years as many are then it isn't a new layout so it is actually a distraction and you'll ignore every other one you see on that basis.
I don't know why anyone thinks these signs help, there's zero evidence they do and given their presence hasn't stopped things like the Belisha Beacons in Cambridge being demolished on the bike roundabout the day it opened I maintain that they are useless.
Do you really need a warning sign to tell you there's a sign ahead? That's basically what you're asking.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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