London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:27
There are, however, alternatives to a small van. Electric cargo bikes are now a thing, these would have the advantages of not needing much physical exertion to use, can go in bus lanes, can avoid a whacking great emissions charge, and are about £18,000 cheaper than a van to buy. They'd actually probably make more money as they could increase the number of jobs attended.
The main problem with that idea is that most works vans are full of heavy tools and materials that they might need on a job. Many also travel from well outside the north circular or the M25 and cover a large area within London - they're on the M11 into town every morning...

However, most vans are now modern as a result of the low emissions schemes currently in place - although the thieves have been having a field day stealing catalytic converters from them round here - manufacturers need to do more in their designs to combat this growing area of theft.

But again, costs are just passed on to the people who live there, so if they vote for such schemes, that's really up to them.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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c2R wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:34
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:27
There are, however, alternatives to a small van. Electric cargo bikes are now a thing, these would have the advantages of not needing much physical exertion to use, can go in bus lanes, can avoid a whacking great emissions charge, and are about £18,000 cheaper than a van to buy. They'd actually probably make more money as they could increase the number of jobs attended.
The main problem with that idea is that most works vans are full of heavy tools and materials that they might need on a job. Many also travel from well outside the north circular or the M25 and cover a large area within London - they're on the M11 into town every morning...

However, most vans are now modern as a result of the low emissions schemes currently in place - although the thieves have been having a field day stealing catalytic converters from them round here - manufacturers need to do more in their designs to combat this growing area of theft.

But again, costs are just passed on to the people who live there, so if they vote for such schemes, that's really up to them.
Yes, but the general point is "I can't do..." is never really much more than "I won't do". If there's an alternative people will soon find and make use of it.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:42 Yes, but the general point is "I can't do..." is never really much more than "I won't do". If there's an alternative people will soon find and make use of it.
Unfortunately this fine democratic concept never seems to apply in reverse; if I find the alternative of driving from home to the North-West say is better, and make use of it, the Woke Lot will be immediately up in arms that I should be priced out of doing so because there is supposedly an "adequate" train.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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WHBM wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:45
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:42 Yes, but the general point is "I can't do..." is never really much more than "I won't do". If there's an alternative people will soon find and make use of it.
Unfortunately this fine democratic concept never seems to apply in reverse; if I find the alternative of driving from home to the North-West say is better, and make use of it, the Woke Lot will be immediately up in arms that I should be priced out of doing so because there is supposedly an "adequate" train.
It would be easier to take your arguments seriously if you didn't use cliches like "Woke Lot". We're supposed to be engineering and transport professionals, not Daily Mail journalists.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Chris5156 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:01
c2R wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 09:47The map's worth a look -
I like the little corridor of pollution that is allowed to the Hogarth Roundabout!
It is! Presumably because it's not practical to signpost non-ULEZ vehicles off the M4 at J2. The signposting for that would be extremely difficult, but I think also TfL lacks the authority to charge vehicles for using the full extent of the M4, so there has to be an outlet off the end of the road. Hogarth is the first point where a u-turn can be made.
This is exactly what has been in place for a few years with the first LEZ, with signage, here approaching J3 :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4937652 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:48 It would be easier to take your arguments seriously if you didn't use cliches like "Woke Lot". We're supposed to be engineering and transport professionals, not Daily Mail journalists.
Even as an engineer and transport professional (thank you) I think it's an excellent descriptive term ...
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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WHBM wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:55
Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 13:48 It would be easier to take your arguments seriously if you didn't use cliches like "Woke Lot". We're supposed to be engineering and transport professionals, not Daily Mail journalists.
Even as an engineer and transport professional (thank you) I think it's an excellent descriptive term ...
To answer your question, no-one is saying you must not drive ever again, other than the usual troll types who aren't part of the industry and aren't taken seriously anyway, but the appropriate use of driving should be factored into much more of transport planning.

It is a ludicrous state of affairs when we now have drive through supermarket plans being developed because no-one can be bothered to get out of their car. This carries a huge cost when people start taking up NHS resources for preventable illnesses brought about through inactivity. This is before we even consider the spatial effects of cars - nearly 10% of Outer London's land usage is car parks. We have a housing crisis and we're turning vast swathes of land over to storing vehicles, not housing people. The environmental impacts have been discussed at length.

If the true social externalities of driving were priced at cost, car ownership would plummet to 1920s levels. That's the reality.

So we need to figure out how to match the convenience of driving with the need to reduce the negative effects of driving. If that means enabling more people to walk and cycle, so be it. If that means more buses, more trains, so be it. The answer is not "more cars", and never will be. That era is past us.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Here in our part of London we have considerable migrant communities, more than half the adult population were not born in the UK. It's notable that they make far more use of cars for everything than the established Brits. This is one of the aspirations of those who come here from less developed places, to have an income and lifestyle like this. Perfectly possible even in London. Contrary to much opinion by those who do not live here, it is not easy to get around London outside Zone 1; the rail service focuses almost wholly on the centre, and the buses are a mish-mash which, although there are plenty of them, never seem to go anywhere useful. By the time we have walked to our local DLR station, especially with children, we could commonly be at our destination by car.

The whole thing about drive-through supermarkets (or, in our case, Ocado delivery) is you don't have to spend two hours of your weekend going to, round and from the shop. Hence how Ocado themselves have way outgrown their depot for the area here in Dagenham, and are building a new place three times the size.

I go out running in the nice park at 7am, because it is a convenient time for me, and Ocado come at 10pm, for the same reason. London didn't rise up to be a world class city on the backs of people with a "don't you do that" attitude to life.

Far and away the greatest social externality is people producing children. Yet we have never even contemplated controlling their numbers. Another one is those in dying industrial areas whose economy has to be constantly propped up by those contributing substantial public funds in the more economically active areas of the country. I wonder where the principal example of that is in the UK ...
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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WHBM wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 14:45 Here in our part of London we have considerable migrant communities, more than half the adult population were not born in the UK. It's notable that they make far more use of cars for everything than the established Brits. This is one of the aspirations of those who come here from less developed places, to have an income and lifestyle like this. Perfectly possible even in London. Contrary to much opinion by those who do not live here, it is not easy to get around London outside Zone 1; the rail service focuses almost wholly on the centre, and the buses are a mish-mash which, although there are plenty of them, never seem to go anywhere useful. By the time we have walked to our local DLR station, especially with children, we could commonly be at our destination by car.

The whole thing about drive-through supermarkets (or, in our case, Ocado delivery) is you don't have to spend two hours of your weekend going to, round and from the shop. Hence how Ocado themselves have way outgrown their depot for the area here in Dagenham, and are building a new place three times the size.

I go out running in the nice park at 7am, because it is a convenient time for me, and Ocado come at 10pm, for the same reason. London didn't rise up to be a world class city on the backs of people with a "don't you do that" attitude to life.

Far and away the greatest social externality is people producing children. Yet we have never even contemplated controlling their numbers. Another one is those in dying industrial areas whose economy has to be constantly propped up by those contributing substantial public funds in the more economically active areas of the country. I wonder where the principal example of that is in the UK ...
Delivery is different to the proposed concept of a supermarket you drive into and your shopping is loaded into your car. This is completely pointless reinventing stuff that doesn't need reinventing.

As for migration into London, I rather suspect people leaving somewhere that routinely has famine and war is more interested in a stable environment in which to live, rather than "oooh I'll be able to drive around the North Circular and sit in a traffic jam". I don't recall "car ownership" being a pull factor when I did humanities.

Are we going to go down the "Londoners prop up the UK" argument now? That's why your mayor is almost bankrupt then, must be really economically active in the capital if TfL can't even scrape together four bob to maintain the Westway? Perhaps you should ask why decades of underinvestment nationally is biting you in the arse instead of complaining about your relatively modest tax bill.

Still, if you want to live in a suburb that is car dependent and the rest of the world wants to leave you behind, your call. The era of "drive everywhere and sod anyone who tries to stop me" is over, the dinosaurs need to look at the asteroid and decide if they want to be hit by it or not.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 14:07 So we need to figure out how to match the convenience of driving with the need to reduce the negative effects of driving. If that means enabling more people to walk and cycle, so be it. If that means more buses, more trains, so be it. The answer is not "more cars", and never will be. That era is past us.
I suspect though the future isn't more buses or trains, or more walking, or more cycling. I'd very much see the future as having stuff delivered to you by autonomously driven electric vans - already the vast majority of the country use amazon regularly, should they need something. The pandemic has increased the amount of ecommerce; I've gone from supermarket shopping to just having everything delivered online as a result - just as the convenience of the supermarket killed the smaller shops, the delivery sector will eventually do for the supermarkets.

I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Thread is now unlocked - play nicely folks.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 08:54
Scratchwood wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 17:41 The number of people who HAVE to to drive into the CC zone is minimal at ANY time of the day, it's a non issue politically.
I know several businesses based within the expanded zone who have already been notified by their suppliers and service providers that each "on-site" visit will include a ULEZ surcharge... in other words, business will simply be passing on the charges to their customers.

Heating, plumbing and electrical servicing technicians (etc) cannot just hop on the tube with all their gear...
That line was referring to the Congestion Charge not the expanded ULEZ. The number of vehicles who have to go into the CC is tiny

I then referred to the ULEZ separately, noting that it would affect many small businesses who couldn't afford to change their van
Scratchwood wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 17:41
The ULEZ extension to the A406/A205 IS more controversial, but of those owning cars within the area, the majority will have cars that are compliant and won't have to pay anyway. As the TfL blurb goes, they don't want people to pay the ULEZ charge, they want them to switch to cleaner vehicles.

The main people affected I imagine will be small businesses with a van which doesn't meet the rules, who either are based within the ULEZ or have to travel into it. The choice of EURO VI secondhand vans will be quite limited, and pricey
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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In the short run businesses may be able to pass on the costs of the ULEZ charge to their clients, but unless they are providing a unique service that nobody else can do, they will start being undercut by businesses with compliant vehicles.

It's important to differentiate between the ULEZ and CC. The latter is a direct toll on anyone driving within Central London, the former is a levy only levied on dirty vehicles, designed to make people change to cleaner vehicles, not stop driving altogether. In reality it's a "dirty diesel" tax, due to the serious air quality problems caused by the growth in diesel vehicle use (for which we blame other politicians!)

Bad news for non Euro VI diesel drivers who need to go into the ULEZ zone, but good news for someone living well away from London wanting a cheap Euro V diesel vehicle...
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Still, if you want to live in a suburb that is car dependent and the rest of the world wants to leave you behind, your call. The era of "drive everywhere and sod anyone who tries to stop me" is over, the dinosaurs need to look at the asteroid and decide if they want to be hit by it or not.
Hm, that's not what I see when I tootle around. Everywhere I go, more and more places are concreting in car dependency, and lets face it, apart from you and a few other fit youngsters, most people in the country aspire to own and drive a car.
ANd I'm not trying to insult anybody here, just describing reality outside the big cities.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 20:17 the former is a levy only levied on dirty vehicles, designed to make people change to cleaner vehicles, not stop driving altogether. In reality it's a "dirty diesel" tax, due to the serious air quality problems caused by the growth in diesel vehicle use
Possibly you could explain to our school how their two Ford Transit minibuses, both (just) pre-current regs and based here in Tower Hamlets, only used normally to take the kids to the swimming pool and back, now it seems have to be replaced at considerable cost., or pay £125 a week.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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WHBM wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 01:13
Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 20:17 the former is a levy only levied on dirty vehicles, designed to make people change to cleaner vehicles, not stop driving altogether. In reality it's a "dirty diesel" tax, due to the serious air quality problems caused by the growth in diesel vehicle use
Possibly you could explain to our school how their two Ford Transit minibuses, both (just) pre-current regs and based here in Tower Hamlets, only used normally to take the kids to the swimming pool and back, now it seems have to be replaced at considerable cost., or pay £125 a week.
I think that perhaps there ought to be an exemption for something like this for schools, NHS, charities subject to a limit on mileage.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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Scratchwood wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 20:17
.... It's important to differentiate between the ULEZ and CC. The latter is a direct toll on anyone driving within Central London, the former is a levy only levied on dirty vehicles, designed to make people change to cleaner vehicles, not stop driving altogether. In reality it's a "dirty diesel" tax, due to the serious air quality problems caused by the growth in diesel vehicle use (for which we blame other politicians!)

Bad news for non Euro VI diesel drivers who need to go into the ULEZ zone, but good news for someone living well away from London wanting a cheap Euro V diesel vehicle...
I certainly agree that ULEZ is a 'dirty diesel tax' and yes it is a problem for anything pre Euro VI. However, while I understand the need to improve the emissions quality, and this move is clearly aimed at providing that outcome, the cost of delivering this is going to fall to a great extent on those less able to afford it (those running older vehicles because they can't afford newer one). I'm not sure that describing pre Euro VI emissions as being a growing is quite correct. Is it a problem? then yes it is, but growing? I would argue not, the number of pre Euro VI vehicles is in natural decline, vehicles grow old and eventually pass the point of economic repair, therefore pre Euro VI is a declining problem.

Over time there will be a natural migration away from older diesels to Euro VI compliant ones vehicles (where Euro VI is deemed acceptable), the ULEZ charge is a rather blunt tool to speed that transition up and which inflicts a cost on people many if whom will struggle to pay and struggle to afford the alternative. We are where are as a result of political decisions, the cost of those poor decisions is now being forced on people who may well have followed that politically driven advice.

I agree that on a regional basis this is likely to have an impact on used car values with pre Euro VI vehicles seeing a fall, and where possibly, against the overall trend against diesel, Euro VI complaints will see a strengthening in value as they are sought out by people wanting (for their own reasons) to stay with diesel but avoid the extended ULEZ.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

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fras wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 23:08
Still, if you want to live in a suburb that is car dependent and the rest of the world wants to leave you behind, your call. The era of "drive everywhere and sod anyone who tries to stop me" is over, the dinosaurs need to look at the asteroid and decide if they want to be hit by it or not.
Hm, that's not what I see when I tootle around. Everywhere I go, more and more places are concreting in car dependency, and lets face it, apart from you and a few other fit youngsters, most people in the country aspire to own and drive a car.
ANd I'm not trying to insult anybody here, just describing reality outside the big cities.
You're not wrong, but in 25 years time all these car dependent estates will start becoming the slums of the future as people are priced out of owning internal combustion engines but can't afford to move with house prices being what they are, and that's before the shoddy build quality comes shining through as well!
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion

Post by Herned »

c2R wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 15:08 I think more work will be done from home, and when people need to go to work, they'll summon an electric autonomous vehicle to come and get them to take them. It'll then either go away and wait for them at a charging station if it's their vehicle, or it'll go back to a pool of vehicles ready to be used by the next person if not.

This future definitely isn't to everyone's taste, but bit by bit I see us ending up there.
I can clearly remember when all the hype around autonomous vehicles started, with their predictions that 2020 would be the year they were widely available. It seems to me that the problems of autonomous vehicles are no nearer to being solved now than 5 years ago
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