London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
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- thatapanydude
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London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
To my horror I have read a few articles this evening, that the congestion charge in London being extended to the N and S Circulars are back on the table and this time seriously.
To quote Sky News, "Ministers want the capital's congestion charge zone to be extended in return for the money".
I for one would find this completely unacceptable on a number of accounts namely the extortionate cost any extension and scope. Moreover, the fact it hits families who are less well-off and who have already had to spend money scrapping cars for the new ULEZ - any extension would be unacceptable. Myself as someone who drives into C.London regularly, the new congestion charge weekend and evening extensions mean I have to park up at Old Street and walk to relatives which most of the time sub-optimal and any increase in scope to the N.Circular at £15 a day, near enough 24 hours and at weekends would be a sham quite frankly. Places like Finchley, Highgate, Golders Green etc rely on a car and are part of the outer London economies - these places would be hit enormously. I myself would either have to pay the £15 a day charge plus parking or take the tube from somewhere like Mill Hill East and pay plus parking too or rely on the train for which at Sunday's for example is hourly and not COVID secure !!
Though it is difficult to see how any implementation would work - fine on red routes but for example how could they monitor the A1000 or A504 into the proposed congestion charge. Maybe, London is a lost cause but I have spoken with my MP and will speak with the guys I know to try and make the case against any such proposals.
To quote Sky News, "Ministers want the capital's congestion charge zone to be extended in return for the money".
I for one would find this completely unacceptable on a number of accounts namely the extortionate cost any extension and scope. Moreover, the fact it hits families who are less well-off and who have already had to spend money scrapping cars for the new ULEZ - any extension would be unacceptable. Myself as someone who drives into C.London regularly, the new congestion charge weekend and evening extensions mean I have to park up at Old Street and walk to relatives which most of the time sub-optimal and any increase in scope to the N.Circular at £15 a day, near enough 24 hours and at weekends would be a sham quite frankly. Places like Finchley, Highgate, Golders Green etc rely on a car and are part of the outer London economies - these places would be hit enormously. I myself would either have to pay the £15 a day charge plus parking or take the tube from somewhere like Mill Hill East and pay plus parking too or rely on the train for which at Sunday's for example is hourly and not COVID secure !!
Though it is difficult to see how any implementation would work - fine on red routes but for example how could they monitor the A1000 or A504 into the proposed congestion charge. Maybe, London is a lost cause but I have spoken with my MP and will speak with the guys I know to try and make the case against any such proposals.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
It is only a matter of time until all urban centres will incorporate charging users for using busier areas, especially with advances in technologies.
Overall I support extending the London Congestion Charge to the N & S circulars, however bringing it to £15, shared with the current zone I'd say isn't the best idea. This may increase journeys made within the current zone as more people are entitled to a discount, as well as people thinking "I've already spent £15 to come into the new zone, I might as well just go right into the centre too". For this reason I believe that the congestion zone should be zoned like public transit. Use the current area, thats Zone 1 - £15. Go within the N&S Circulars, well thats Zone 2 - £6. Those who are entitled to a discount due to an expansion can only use Zone 2, unless they shell out £15 (minus discounted Z2 fee) to use Zone 1 as well.
People may say that's confusing, but when I've used the London Underground, I have never been confused about the zones, so it shouldn't really confuse drivers either.
In practice, the boundary of the new zone shouldn't the kerb stone on the inside of the N & S circulars, some consideration should be made to minimise the amount of points in and out of the zone to allow better signage of the zone.
Overall I support extending the London Congestion Charge to the N & S circulars, however bringing it to £15, shared with the current zone I'd say isn't the best idea. This may increase journeys made within the current zone as more people are entitled to a discount, as well as people thinking "I've already spent £15 to come into the new zone, I might as well just go right into the centre too". For this reason I believe that the congestion zone should be zoned like public transit. Use the current area, thats Zone 1 - £15. Go within the N&S Circulars, well thats Zone 2 - £6. Those who are entitled to a discount due to an expansion can only use Zone 2, unless they shell out £15 (minus discounted Z2 fee) to use Zone 1 as well.
People may say that's confusing, but when I've used the London Underground, I have never been confused about the zones, so it shouldn't really confuse drivers either.
In practice, the boundary of the new zone shouldn't the kerb stone on the inside of the N & S circulars, some consideration should be made to minimise the amount of points in and out of the zone to allow better signage of the zone.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
This is definitely a bonkers time to increase charges that drive people to public transport. One arm of government wants people to make only essential train journeys while another is drooling over the prospect of ridding Greater London of cars. I wonder if they plan on making real provision for cycling that would allow for the intended reduction in car traffic...
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
All I'm reading is "how dare I be expected to take some social responsibility for my life choices" in this OP.
I agree though with jervi that it should really be a two tier charge to prevent the "may as well pay up and drive the full way" problem he raises.
I agree though with jervi that it should really be a two tier charge to prevent the "may as well pay up and drive the full way" problem he raises.
Bryn
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
Covid will be largely forgotten next year.DB617 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:27 This is definitely a bonkers time to increase charges that drive people to public transport. One arm of government wants people to make only essential train journeys while another is drooling over the prospect of ridding Greater London of cars. I wonder if they plan on making real provision for cycling that would allow for the intended reduction in car traffic...
Congestion, road crashes, and air pollution won't be, and it will continue to contribute to approx 10k Londoners a year unless action is taken, currently 4k more than Covid has.
Bryn
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
Not so sure about that personally, some estimates put the vaccine arrival date at as late as 2022Bryn666 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:31Covid will be largely forgotten next year.DB617 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:27 This is definitely a bonkers time to increase charges that drive people to public transport. One arm of government wants people to make only essential train journeys while another is drooling over the prospect of ridding Greater London of cars. I wonder if they plan on making real provision for cycling that would allow for the intended reduction in car traffic...
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
Without going off topic, other large scale pandemics largely die down within 12-18 months of first occurring. There wasn't a vaccine for the 1918 flu until the 1940s, but the pandemic ended in 1920.Roavin wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:38Not so sure about that personally, some estimates put the vaccine arrival date at as late as 2022Bryn666 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:31Covid will be largely forgotten next year.DB617 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 21:27 This is definitely a bonkers time to increase charges that drive people to public transport. One arm of government wants people to make only essential train journeys while another is drooling over the prospect of ridding Greater London of cars. I wonder if they plan on making real provision for cycling that would allow for the intended reduction in car traffic...
The problems of traffic will only get worse, and having 10 million Londoners decide driving is somehow the answer to the problem to overcrowded trains/buses is frankly the worst idea since letting Hitler have the Sudetenland "to avoid another war".
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
If this happened, I wonder if the Blackwall Tunnel approaches plus the sections of A2, A12 and A13 leading to them would be excluded?
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
I am trying to find work at the moment having been made redundant in April, and the few jobs I've been in the running for have all been a 20 mile drive away. To dismiss car commuters as having made a 'lifestyle choice' is not something I'd agree with at all.
- Vierwielen
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
Unless the South Circular has better signposting, the extension of the congestion charge will cause much anger if people find themselves in the wrong lane and inadvertently drift into the charge zone. I was once caught out trying to keep to the A205 one night here. Fortunately I did not have to pay £15 for being in the wrong lane!.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
It very much depends, largely down to pot luck, where you live and where you are working. My guess is that there may be some places of work just inside the north or south circulars that are not well served by public transport.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
If I remember correctly the charge only applies if you cross the boundary of the congestion charge area. Therefore residents who live within the North and South Circulars will get to drive into Central London for free under these proposals.
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- thatapanydude
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
I would go further and say many places. I don't want to give my parents jobs away too much but someone driving from N.London on the A1 to let's say Canary Wharf or Chiswick Business Park using anything but the A406 and going inside the N&S Circulars is in-practical and not feasible at all.
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- thatapanydude
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
Currently, residents in the CC zone are applicable for a discount - in some cases 90% but to clarify its certainly not free and easy to attain currently.
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- ForestChav
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
The pandemic will end anyway by one of the following means:
- a vaccine
- herd immunity because everyone who is susceptible has got it or avoided it until the first results in no virus to infect anyone else
- the virus mutates to become pretty ineffective, doesn't make anyone else ill (it barely is now) or just dies out
I am in favour of using alternative means to cars where this is possible, but right now, PT isn't the greatest idea unless you have an alternative. Sitting in a semi-packed carriage with randoms even at 2m separation isn't good to avoid disease and the face diapers don't afford complete protection, they just help. I guess it's just common sense to avoid buses, trains, and to a certain extent taxis right now. Which means you need to be either walking distance, have suitable routes to cycle on (which a lot of routes basically aren't) or take the car.
The pandemic isn't necessarily the best time to push public transport, though I agree in some areas it can be improved, as can cycle lanes (without removing too much capacity from motorists who don't really have an alternative). It's a fine balancing act.
The OP will also be familiar enough with this area, but they were talking about reducing the capacity of Trent Bridge to allow cycle lanes. I don't get it, because there's the footbridge slightly upstream which could be used for this, and whilst there's all the faffery about with Clifton Bridge... Maybe a good idea in isolation, but the alternatives are better.
- a vaccine
- herd immunity because everyone who is susceptible has got it or avoided it until the first results in no virus to infect anyone else
- the virus mutates to become pretty ineffective, doesn't make anyone else ill (it barely is now) or just dies out
I am in favour of using alternative means to cars where this is possible, but right now, PT isn't the greatest idea unless you have an alternative. Sitting in a semi-packed carriage with randoms even at 2m separation isn't good to avoid disease and the face diapers don't afford complete protection, they just help. I guess it's just common sense to avoid buses, trains, and to a certain extent taxis right now. Which means you need to be either walking distance, have suitable routes to cycle on (which a lot of routes basically aren't) or take the car.
The pandemic isn't necessarily the best time to push public transport, though I agree in some areas it can be improved, as can cycle lanes (without removing too much capacity from motorists who don't really have an alternative). It's a fine balancing act.
The OP will also be familiar enough with this area, but they were talking about reducing the capacity of Trent Bridge to allow cycle lanes. I don't get it, because there's the footbridge slightly upstream which could be used for this, and whilst there's all the faffery about with Clifton Bridge... Maybe a good idea in isolation, but the alternatives are better.
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
As noted above there would have to be some serious planning as a number of roads cross the proposed boundary without any facility to avoid the zone or even to turn back. My main thought though is now much will it cost, where will the money come from and when will it need spending?
As a practical matter of implementation I think, assuming that it is inevitable, it should be a two zone set up with more restricted hours in the outer zone.
As a practical matter of implementation I think, assuming that it is inevitable, it should be a two zone set up with more restricted hours in the outer zone.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
The cameras are only on the edge of the CC zone. Therefore, unless a two tier system was brought in, someone in, for example, Golders Green, could drive through the middle of the city to somewhere like Camberwell and back and pay no charge but would pay a charge to go to Mill Hill and back.thatapanydude wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 22:20Currently, residents in the CC zone are applicable for a discount - in some cases 90% but to clarify its certainly not free and easy to attain currently.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
That's what I expected so I'll assume the cameras for the current congestion charge will remain in place to 'get' those drivers who live in the proposed extended charging zone who pass though the central area.trickstat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 22:56 The cameras are only on the edge of the CC zone. Therefore, unless a two tier system was brought in, someone in, for example, Golders Green, could drive through the middle of the city to somewhere like Camberwell and back and pay no charge but would pay a charge to go to Mill Hill and back.
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- A42_Sparks
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Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
I'd give it 10-15 years until private cars are banned from entering central London altogether.
Re: London Congestion Charge Possible Expansion
How nice of the OP to go from thinking they should get free access to London at the cost of Londoners, to now thinking that everyone in the country should pay for this through their taxes. Thanks!
The thing I find weird about this idea is that Johnson was elected as Mayor on a manifesto of reducing the congestion charge zone. Which he implemented after around two and a half years in office. But it looks like it will take little over one year in office as Prime Minister to vastly extend it.
Mind, he also became party leader on the back of arguing that you have to risk walking away without a deal in negotiations no matter the consequences. So I hope Khan does that. An incredibly damaging shut down of the transport network would hurt Johnson and his government far more than the Mayor's office.
But I generally agree with the extension, with some kind of work permit scheme to give reasonable exemptions to business which need to enter the zone. It has a much different character to the current central zone which needs to be considered.
And much like Park Lane was exempt from the former western extension, there still needs to be something similar for genuine north to south traffic to cross London. The South Circular is not a viable option for routing traffic around the zone in the way the North Circular is, and expecting it to be used that way will cause a lot more problems.
The A2 and A102 to the A13 and A12 provides a suitable set of options in the east, but something would also be needed in the west. With nothing similar, the most likely option would be the A3220 which connects the South Circular with the A4 and A40. Not the most ideal but I cannot think of anything better.
Although I am curious of examples of roads where it is impossible not to cross the South or North Circulars to enter the zone? Although the solution will be the same as it is for the ULEZ, so any such issue is not a new one.
The thing I find weird about this idea is that Johnson was elected as Mayor on a manifesto of reducing the congestion charge zone. Which he implemented after around two and a half years in office. But it looks like it will take little over one year in office as Prime Minister to vastly extend it.
Mind, he also became party leader on the back of arguing that you have to risk walking away without a deal in negotiations no matter the consequences. So I hope Khan does that. An incredibly damaging shut down of the transport network would hurt Johnson and his government far more than the Mayor's office.
But I generally agree with the extension, with some kind of work permit scheme to give reasonable exemptions to business which need to enter the zone. It has a much different character to the current central zone which needs to be considered.
And much like Park Lane was exempt from the former western extension, there still needs to be something similar for genuine north to south traffic to cross London. The South Circular is not a viable option for routing traffic around the zone in the way the North Circular is, and expecting it to be used that way will cause a lot more problems.
The A2 and A102 to the A13 and A12 provides a suitable set of options in the east, but something would also be needed in the west. With nothing similar, the most likely option would be the A3220 which connects the South Circular with the A4 and A40. Not the most ideal but I cannot think of anything better.
The zone will be congruous with the ULEZ, it will almost certainly just be added on to that. In that sense implementation will be rather cheap as the physical infrastructure will already exist. It would just need the data going to two databases instead of one.Piatkow wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 22:40As noted above there would have to be some serious planning as a number of roads cross the proposed boundary without any facility to avoid the zone or even to turn back. My main thought though is now much will it cost, where will the money come from and when will it need spending?
Although I am curious of examples of roads where it is impossible not to cross the South or North Circulars to enter the zone? Although the solution will be the same as it is for the ULEZ, so any such issue is not a new one.