No motorcycles

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Lockwood
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No motorcycles

Post by Lockwood » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:15

I've been up to Park Royal in London and noticed a road there with a no motorcycle restriction.

The only other place I can think of one off the top of my head is the centre of the A38(M), due to the slip hazards.

How common are these, and what are the usual reasons?

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Bryn666
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28

The nearest ones I know of are on public footpaths where anti-social behaviour orders are in place.

They're naturally 0% effective.
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trickstat
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by trickstat » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:49

Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28
The nearest ones I know of are on public footpaths where anti-social behaviour orders are in place.

They're naturally 0% effective.
I think most of those are in places where all motorised vehicles are banned, but there are things like posts which would physically prevent cars, vans and HGVs using the path but you can't block motorbikes without blocking pushbikes.

I think the OP is mainly referring to roads where motorbikes are not allowed but other motorised vehicles are.

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Bryn666
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52

trickstat wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:49
Bryn666 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28
The nearest ones I know of are on public footpaths where anti-social behaviour orders are in place.

They're naturally 0% effective.
I think most of those are in places where all motorised vehicles are banned, but there are things like posts which would physically prevent cars, vans and HGVs using the path but you can't block motorbikes without blocking pushbikes.

I think the OP is mainly referring to roads where motorbikes are not allowed but other motorised vehicles are.
Yes, and that will be extremely rare to find because there's little reason to ban them from roads unless it's a unique situation like the death drain on the Aston Expressway.
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by jervi » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:38

I remember once someone shows be a residential street with a motorcycle prohibition, which came about due to anti-social behavior. Cannot remember where it is though.

On the flipside, how many cycle tracks in the UK permit mopeds? - I know in some countries in Europe it is very common, but not so much here (mostly because its rare to find a road designed only for two wheels).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.15865 ... 384!8i8192

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Bryn666
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:40

The older cycle tracks around Manchester permitted mopeds.

In particular on the Princess Parkway and around Trafford Park.
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trickstat
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by trickstat » Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:06

Stevenage's cycle tracks permit mopeds. A privilege I remember being abused a lot by trials bikes in the '80s.

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Lockwood
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Lockwood » Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:21

Yes, I was thinking specifically of No Motorcycles, rather than No Motor Vehicles or No Vehicles (except pedal cycles being pushed)

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Al__S » Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:31

trickstat wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:06
Stevenage's cycle tracks permit mopeds. A privilege I remember being abused a lot by trials bikes in the '80s.
some but not all. They're signed if so, but not all that clearly

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by yen_powell » Sat Dec 19, 2020 16:11

I thought I saw one on the Chiswick fly-over in the 90s, just as I flew past it and went over it on my bike. Just looked on GSV and seen a blue 'car and motorcycle' only sign now though, so maybe I am mistaken.

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trickstat
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by trickstat » Sat Dec 19, 2020 16:48

Al__S wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:31
trickstat wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:06
Stevenage's cycle tracks permit mopeds. A privilege I remember being abused a lot by trials bikes in the '80s.
some but not all. They're signed if so, but not all that clearly
I've found this sign not far from the hospital:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9225595 ... 312!8i6656

and this about a mile to the east:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9209766 ... k%3Fpanoid

However, this one is not far south of the first one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.91694,- ... 312!8i6656

I think mopeds tend to be allowed on the main arteries of the network but not so much on the branches or those parts shared with pedestrians.

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c2R
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by c2R » Sat Dec 19, 2020 22:59

Yeah, with Stevenage, I think that you'd probably need to trawl the legal orders - I suspect it's a real mess - I'd expect that mopeds are allowed on most of the segrated network that isn't shared space, but that much of that has lost its signage. And also that the newer paths might not have the same legislative permissions.

Given the standard of the Stevenage network, having a large amount of grade separation fro the roads, with separate foot and cycle lanes, I think it is right that mopeds and cyclists should share their part of the network.
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by FosseWay » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:28

jervi wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:38
On the flipside, how many cycle tracks in the UK permit mopeds? - I know in some countries in Europe it is very common, but not so much here (mostly because its rare to find a road designed only for two wheels).
Be thankful that UK legislation used a logical definition of what constitutes a motor vehicle - i.e. a vehicle with a motor - and applies restrictions accordingly.

Here, the lowest category of mopeds are permitted on cycle paths, and they are also basically usable without a licence. (That's not entirely true - you have to have a licence, but you don't have to demonstrate any competence to obtain one. This means that your licence can be revoked if you misbehave, but given that enforcement is nil that is only a theoretical difference from the requirements for people on pedal cycles.)

Theoretically, such machines are limited to 25 km/h (or is it 30, can't remember). But there is virtually nothing stopping people modding their engines to achieve higher speeds, and there is nothing to stop EU class 2 mopeds (restricted to 45 km/h) using cycle paths, as there is no possible physical restriction that would stop them but not smaller mopeds or cycles, and there is not enough obvious difference to make it socially unacceptable (as driving a car there would be).

Part of my problem is that a powered vehicle doing 30 everywhere is very different from a pedal cycle that may well do more than that on specific stretches but will mostly be well below 25, never mind 30. Another part is that one of the reasons I cycle on cycle paths is to avoid the fumes of ICE vehicles on roads. If you let these two-wheel Trabis on cycle paths you more than remove that advantage, since they are far smellier than your average family car.

Personally I would like to see ICE mopeds banned altogether, but failing that, getting them off cycle/footways would be a start. I'd be prepared to compromise on electric mopeds (by which I mean vehicles with the same characteristics as Vespas and similar, not e-bikes) providing their drivers had to abide by the same licence requirements as car drivers (i.e. pass a test, no driving before you're 18). But as a basic rule, motor vehicles belong on the motor vehicle highway, not the cycle path, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by SteelCamel » Sun Dec 20, 2020 18:01

FosseWay wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:28
Be thankful that UK legislation used a logical definition of what constitutes a motor vehicle - i.e. a vehicle with a motor - and applies restrictions accordingly.
Not exactly. Neither electrically-assisted bicycles nor mobility scooters count as motor vehicles (as long as they meet the relevant regulations), despite most definitely being propelled by motors. But I don't think anything with an internal combustion engine can avoid being classed a motor vehicle.

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by FosseWay » Sun Dec 20, 2020 19:19

SteelCamel wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 18:01
FosseWay wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:28
Be thankful that UK legislation used a logical definition of what constitutes a motor vehicle - i.e. a vehicle with a motor - and applies restrictions accordingly.
Not exactly. Neither electrically-assisted bicycles nor mobility scooters count as motor vehicles (as long as they meet the relevant regulations), despite most definitely being propelled by motors. But I don't think anything with an internal combustion engine can avoid being classed a motor vehicle.
You are entirely correct, of course - I was using the definition somewhat loosely. The principal problems are with vehicles that are either capable of sustaining normal urban road speeds, or which are ICE-powered, or both, being able to use road space intended for NMUs (in which category I would place e-bikes and mobility scooters).
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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Cole » Mon Jan 18, 2021 20:59

Lockwood wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:15
I've been up to Park Royal in London and noticed a road there with a no motorcycle restriction.

The only other place I can think of one off the top of my head is the centre of the A38(M), due to the slip hazards.

How common are these, and what are the usual reasons?
It relates to the Ace Cafe nearby on the other side of the old North Circular. Certain nights of the week - mostly Fridays I think, there was a lot of anti-social behaviour by a small minority of motorcyclists. The police would issue dispersal orders and I think the displacement effect meant they moved to the Twyford Abbey Road area near Park Royal. The ASB included burn ups, spinning donuts, loud exhausts etc.

And yes there used to be a No Motorcycles sign for the narrow flyover crossing the Chiswick roundabout.

By the way, a few years ago I had a really nice burger for lunch at the Ace Cafe one Friday. Most of the time it's absolutely fine!

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by AndyB » Tue Jan 19, 2021 13:36

FosseWay wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 19:19
SteelCamel wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 18:01
FosseWay wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:28
Be thankful that UK legislation used a logical definition of what constitutes a motor vehicle - i.e. a vehicle with a motor - and applies restrictions accordingly.
Not exactly. Neither electrically-assisted bicycles nor mobility scooters count as motor vehicles (as long as they meet the relevant regulations), despite most definitely being propelled by motors. But I don't think anything with an internal combustion engine can avoid being classed a motor vehicle.
You are entirely correct, of course - I was using the definition somewhat loosely. The principal problems are with vehicles that are either capable of sustaining normal urban road speeds, or which are ICE-powered, or both, being able to use road space intended for NMUs (in which category I would place e-bikes and mobility scooters).
No, I think your terminology was accurate enough. Mobility scooters are legally motor vehicles, but as long as they are being used properly in accordance with the invalid carriage regulations, they are not subject to the other provisions of the RTA/RTO.

Ebikes had to be explicitly excepted in the same way as ride-on lawnmowers.

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 09:24

Cole wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 20:59
And yes there used to be a No Motorcycles sign for the narrow flyover crossing the Chiswick roundabout.
Are you thinking of the Hogarth Roundabout? The only flyover that’s ever existed at Chiswick is the one carrying the M4.

The Hogarth Flyover is now signposted with a blue “motorcycles and cars only” sign but I could easily believe that motorbikes weren’t always allowed.

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Re: No motorcycles

Post by Cole » Wed Jan 20, 2021 18:55

You're probably right - the Hogarth roundabout. I just saw the word Chiswick in the yen powell post and repeated it. I haven't lived in London for nearly 19 years now. "Somewhere in west London" would have covered it with enough ambiguity!

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