Left Turn on Red

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Micro The Maniac
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by Micro The Maniac » Fri Jan 22, 2021 17:34

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:16
CBRD as was - now Roads.org.uk - covered an experiment something like this quite a while ago.
Eek... I can see why that was dropped... the multi-phasing of lights made it very complex!

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 18:07

KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 16:49
FosseWay wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:07

Yes, the UK is much better than Sweden with these, probably because pressure of traffic has caused it to deal with unnecessary hold-ups more. But here, a lot of traffic lights for both motor vehicles and cyclists just cycle through in a predetermined way. This coupled with the tendency to sprinkle lights all over the place increased journey times in cities considerably - not just for cars but for buses and cyclists as well.
I suppose the most extreme example of that I have seen was in the town of Beatty Nevada (cheap lodging for Death Valley) which had a set of lights (the only ones in town) that worked on a lengthy fixed cycle. The hotel owner reckoned they were basically a money maker for the town council with local cops hitting out of towners with a $100 fine for jumping the red light. They had you both ways as the roads have Stop signs at the intersection as well.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.90826 ... authuser=0
I know Beatty fairly well, passed through dozens and dozens of times and “Death Valley Nut and Candy” made a fortune from me - but where are the lights? The main junction (95&374, with right hand turn to stay on 95) is a 4 way stop. Perhaps in the past?

The 95 is awash with cops, its just so straight and long, and pretty quiet so the temptation to stray over is high - I got pulled twice although never fined. Last advice from the cop was “sir if you set you cruise to 82 you’ll have no issue from us”, limit was 70iirc!

A very interesting part of the world, although hot!

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 18:12

I like the maritime approach to pri and accidents - there are rules on who has priority, but superseding that is the rule that you should avoid accidents, so you cant just plough on and hit someone and say “i had right of way”. It seems a bit more grown up vs road culture.

Shared space concepts of roads effectively make “turn on red” the default as there are no reds and you just go everywhere based on judgement not to hit people.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by bart » Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:04

Having read through this there are lots of comments about the problems with a red light meaning "give way". In the USA, you can turn on red after coming to a complete stop, unless specifically prohibited by a sign. (In practice, of course, most people perform a "rolling stop", slowing right down but still taking a good view.) It can lead to some conflicts, for example a crossroads near me has left-turn lanes on all approaches but they only operate if there is traffic so the situation can arise where all approaches are read except one which is green for traffic to go straight on or turn left. Approaching from the opposite direction you reach a red light but it's not immediately clear that the traffic you should be giving way to is oncoming traffic turning left, as opposed to cross traffic.

As for pedestrians, I never had any problem when I lived in Pasadena, because the intersections are all signalized for pedestrians. If you approach a red light as a driver wanting to turn right, then immediately below the traffic signals is the WALK/DON'T WALK for pedestrians and you see immediately that this is green. Also, if this conflict exists then all pedestrian movements will be green (and all traffic movements red) since in a phased situation pedestrians are allowed to cross only parallel to the allowed traffic direction (which means, of course, that drivers are turning right and having to give way to pedestrians on green without the need to stop).

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Bryn666
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:18

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 16:43
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 23:08
A red light should be absolute.
Only if a green light is too.

If I have to stop on red, I absolutely should get to go on green.

It is NOT my fault if an inattentive moron tries to cross the road on me.

We need to move away from the attitude that cars are the least important type of traffic.
Are you sure you've never met Lenzar? You have very similar views. You'd get on.
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by KeithW » Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:34

marconaf wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 18:07
KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 16:49
FosseWay wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:07

Yes, the UK is much better than Sweden with these, probably because pressure of traffic has caused it to deal with unnecessary hold-ups more. But here, a lot of traffic lights for both motor vehicles and cyclists just cycle through in a predetermined way. This coupled with the tendency to sprinkle lights all over the place increased journey times in cities considerably - not just for cars but for buses and cyclists as well.
I suppose the most extreme example of that I have seen was in the town of Beatty Nevada (cheap lodging for Death Valley) which had a set of lights (the only ones in town) that worked on a lengthy fixed cycle. The hotel owner reckoned they were basically a money maker for the town council with local cops hitting out of towners with a $100 fine for jumping the red light. They had you both ways as the roads have Stop signs at the intersection as well.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.90826 ... authuser=0
I know Beatty fairly well, passed through dozens and dozens of times and “Death Valley Nut and Candy” made a fortune from me - but where are the lights? The main junction (95&374, with right hand turn to stay on 95) is a 4 way stop. Perhaps in the past?

The 95 is awash with cops, its just so straight and long, and pretty quiet so the temptation to stray over is high - I got pulled twice although never fined. Last advice from the cop was “sir if you set you cruise to 82 you’ll have no issue from us”, limit was 70iirc!

A very interesting part of the world, although hot!
The link to google maps is in the post, the lights are or were suspended from wires in the middle of the intersection. That looks to be an old GSV shot, I spotted it back in 1996.
This is a closer look.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.90841 ... authuser=0

marconaf
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 21:34

KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:34
marconaf wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 18:07
KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 16:49


I suppose the most extreme example of that I have seen was in the town of Beatty Nevada (cheap lodging for Death Valley) which had a set of lights (the only ones in town) that worked on a lengthy fixed cycle. The hotel owner reckoned they were basically a money maker for the town council with local cops hitting out of towners with a $100 fine for jumping the red light. They had you both ways as the roads have Stop signs at the intersection as well.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.90826 ... authuser=0
I know Beatty fairly well, passed through dozens and dozens of times and “Death Valley Nut and Candy” made a fortune from me - but where are the lights? The main junction (95&374, with right hand turn to stay on 95) is a 4 way stop. Perhaps in the past?

The 95 is awash with cops, its just so straight and long, and pretty quiet so the temptation to stray over is high - I got pulled twice although never fined. Last advice from the cop was “sir if you set you cruise to 82 you’ll have no issue from us”, limit was 70iirc!

A very interesting part of the world, although hot!
The link to google maps is in the post, the lights are or were suspended from wires in the middle of the intersection. That looks to be an old GSV shot, I spotted it back in 1996.
This is a closer look.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.90841 ... authuser=0
Yeah I looked at the jn to make sure but I dont think that’s a signalised junction - that assembly on the wires just flashes a warning (orange?) as part of the 4 way stop hence it’s a single light aspect to each direction. Quite a few 4 ways have this in that part of the world - it still works as a 4 way stop and isnt a signalised junction in any normal meaning. I do recall noticing the light at night.

Its about if not over a 100 miles to the next non-priority junctions on the 95 (and probably the same on the 374 into Desth Valley) hence the need to warn people they are going to have to stop.

I suspect the Beatty story of the cops getting fines was for people rolling the stop line, a common cop tactic and one I was the victim of a long time ago after in a nose to tail queue I moved from 2m behind a line to 2m in front of it (the back of the car in front, a car length in total) and a cop literally jumped out the bush as I hadnt stopped on it.

The 95 alignment from Dallas up towards Reno (iirc) is going to get an interstate is the plan, bypass Beatty and the other towns - which will probably “radiator springs” them as at the moment its the 95 keeping them alive. Not that there is a huge amount there bar a bit of residual mining. As a corridor its getting busier, I saw a noticable difference in 2019 over 2018 for instance. Although at this junction I can only recall having to wait for another user a handful of times so busy is all relative!

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by pjr10th » Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:36

Al__S wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 08:01
Not only should this not happen, it should also be law that at signalised junctions in urban areas every arm should have pedestrian signals. No more "just take a chance" and definitely no more "standalone crossing 100m down the street". Reduces motor vehicle capacity? Tough. Pedestrians first.
Near me there is a road with only one arm having a pedestrian crossing... Right near a car park and a park in an urban area. There is no way to cross the major road on a protected phase. Fortunately it's only S2 with right turn lanes but still how hard would it be to have all all-red phase...

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by pjr10th » Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:45

I'm definitely against turn right on red. It may make sense in America where every other junction is signalised and there's likely to be low pedestrian flow, but in over here most of the time, at least in my experience, you'll be interacting with pedestrians and anyway as a peace of mind for me when crossing the road I like to know no cars are going to be trying to get past me (sense of safety).

Plus as a policy, it doesn't seem safe for cyclists using adjacent lanes and I'm not sure how it fits in with the UK's signalised roundabouts. Could you go ahead on red (since that isn't conflicting anymore than going to the farthest lane of the left road).

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 23:12

Pedestrians can be very plentiful in the US, it is a stereotype that they all drive and whilst in many places it is quiet, those arent the places the turn on red benefits. Go to a town or city and it still works with high levels of other users.

My experience was it highlights shared space and in fact reinforces cars not having priority over pedestrians.

Although again, Id be interested in statistics rarher than people presuming.

As for roundabouts - if nothing is coming round, (a) why is signalised anyway and (b) why are you on a red?

At a signalised roundabout junction you’d probably find the turn is prohibited due to the complexity.

As an example, my local town Aylesbury. The junction of A41 and A4157 to the SE of the centre. Its a nightmare junction especially heading SE on the A41.

Sorry dont know how to link a google location - Tried but failed!


There is no room for more lanes.
The left lane is to turn left onto A4157, say 30% of traffic.
It is also straight on, 60%.
The right lane is straight on, but then becomes stacking space to turn right into King Edward Ave.
About 10% want to do that but effectively wipe out the right lane so 60% is stuck in the left.
There are a lot of movements here and so cycles are short.
Those turning left go slowly off from the lights as its a tight turn, preventing those going direct from accelerating.
Result- few get through each cycle and the road is jammed back to and onto the previous roundabout even with huge amounts of rat running through surrounding streets, all of which are narrow and completely unsuited to that.
A left turn would allow some left bound cars to go when the other movements permit gaps. That would have a disproportional impact on getting the mainline through more efficiently.
Similar effects are on the A41 inbound to the town and from King Edward Ave, both of which would benefit from letting their left lanes turn left (which is 40+% traffic in them) without having to stop the entire system as at present which also kills the mainline.
You could argue for filters but it just gets even more complex, whilst turn on red would give flexibility.
Meanwhile despite being in a town and residential area, pedestrians crossing are a surprising rarity.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by KeithW » Sat Jan 23, 2021 05:28

marconaf wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 23:12
Pedestrians can be very plentiful in the US, it is a stereotype that they all drive and whilst in many places it is quiet, those arent the places the turn on red benefits. Go to a town or city and it still works with high levels of other users.
Depends where in the USA, San Francisco and New York are mostly good, much of Los Angeles is iffy at best and parts of Danvers MA are definitely not as there are roads where there is no footpath between adjacent premises.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@42.55852 ... authuser=0

Lots of luck walking to Danvers Plaza , not a footpath to be seen and those are busy roads, I know someone who tried from his hotel which is about a mile away and he got picked up for jaywalking, they took him back to the hotel he was staying and told him to take a cab.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@42.58368 ... authuser=0

Then there a cities like Oakland where I advise careful research about the areas you walk in. Jack London Square is fine but I wouldnt take a stroll down 72nd Avenue if I were there.

marconaf
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:15

I’mn not sure what 3 specific examples add in a country of 300million and hundreds of cities...

Theur right turn on red coexists with significant peds in 100s of 1000s of instances.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by FosseWay » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:24

Al__S wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 08:01
Not only should this not happen, it should also be law that at signalised junctions in urban areas every arm should have pedestrian signals. No more "just take a chance" and definitely no more "standalone crossing 100m down the street". Reduces motor vehicle capacity? Tough. Pedestrians first.
While I broadly agree with the aim and sentiment of this, I don't think you need all the extra infrastructure it implies to achieve what you want.

In many countries, you are expected to give way to pedestrians crossing a side road when you turn into it. Essentially this is an extension of the rule generally applied to cycle lanes in much of Europe: the cyclists get green at the same time as motor traffic in parallel lanes, and anyone wishing to turn or change lanes must yield to traffic going straight on in that lane. This approach essentially turns the entrances to side roads at light-controlled junctions into zebra crossings - pedestrians get priority but traffic only has to stop while peds are physically on the crossing; no long intergreens, extra time to give hypothetical slow pedestrians the time they need, and no unused ped phases.

As I say, this is standard in many places, such as where I live, at least on roads with a normal urban speed limit (50 km/h or less). Major intersections where one or more arms have a higher limit tend to have standard pedestrian-called signals that keep the traffic on red for longer if the ped signal is called.

In fact, in many places with a <50 km/h limit this basically applies to all side turnings, whether signalised or not, since they generally have road markings indicating a crossing point, and drivers here tend to be pretty good at giving way to pedestrians in this kind of low-speed environment.
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marconaf
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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by marconaf » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:04

Errr arent you required to give way to pedestrians crossing when you turn into a side road in the UK also? On the basis they’ve already begun their movement before you were there.

Pretty sure you are although a grey area if they are still on the pavement perhaps.

It’s a good analogy though - we already do this at non signalised junctions so why not extend it - reinforces ped right of way but allows flexibility for flow of traffic.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by Micro The Maniac » Sat Jan 23, 2021 13:29

marconaf wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:04
Errr arent you required to give way to pedestrians crossing when you turn into a side road in the UK also? On the basis they’ve already begun their movement before you were there.
In theory, a pedestrian (or a cyclist) going straight across has right of way over a vehicle turning into a side road.

This is confused, where cycle-paths have give-way lines at the dropped curbs... something that the recent new guidance seeks to clarify by making cycle-paths continuous across the junctions, with clear road vehicle give-way markings.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 14:16

marconaf wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:04
Errr arent you required to give way to pedestrians crossing when you turn into a side road in the UK also? On the basis they’ve already begun their movement before you were there.
Correct - but in reality it is one of the most poorly observed rules out of the whole Highway Code. Drivers generally just plough on through and expect pedestrians to wait for a gap.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by jervi » Sat Jan 23, 2021 16:29

Chris5156 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 14:16
marconaf wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:04
Errr arent you required to give way to pedestrians crossing when you turn into a side road in the UK also? On the basis they’ve already begun their movement before you were there.
Correct - but in reality it is one of the most poorly observed rules out of the whole Highway Code. Drivers generally just plough on through and expect pedestrians to wait for a gap.
I'll put my hand up and say that I didn't know that was in the highway code.
I've always treated it as "whoever has to go over a kerb, gives way", i.e. if I am entering into a carpark that goes over a dropped kerb, I have to giveway to those walking along pavement. However if there is a sideroad where the pavement goes over the kerb, the pedestrian should giveway.
However in general I'll giveway to those walking along the pavement, unless it is unsuitable due to other vehicles behind me.
Also this is why I hate bi-directional cycle tracks (and shared spaces) immeditnaly adjacent to road junctions. In my opinion Bi-directional cycle tracks & shared spaces should not ever cross a sideroad except at controlled junctions in an urban area.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by nowster » Sat Jan 23, 2021 20:22

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 16:43
If I have to stop on red, I absolutely should get to go on green.
When did a green light start giving absolute priority?

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by ais523 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 06:09

With regards to pedestrian priority when crossing:
Highway Code Rule 170 wrote: watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way (source)
This was my understanding of the rule too: pedestrians have priority once they've actually started to cross a road, but the vehicles have priority while the pedestrian is still on the pavement.

I've often wondered what the purpose of zebra crossings is, given that the rules for a zebra crossing, as I learned them, seemed to be the same as the rules for a stretch of road with no zebra crossing. (That said, in practice, vehicles are much more likely to stop for waiting pedestrians at a zebra crossing than elsewhere.) The relevant rule for those is 195, and the difference seems to be "pedestrians have priority once they've already started to cross but there's no specific law penalising failing to stop for them; but at a zebra crossing, it is explicitly illegal to fail to stop for a pedestrian who is already crossing and recommended but not required that you give pedestrians who are waiting the opportunity". Of course, even if there isn't a specific law against failing to stop for a pedestrian crossing the road, drivers could still quite plausibly be punished for, e.g., driving without due care and attention, or some comparable general-purpose motoring offence.

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Re: Left Turn on Red

Post by FosseWay » Sun Jan 24, 2021 13:27

marconaf wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:04
Errr arent you required to give way to pedestrians crossing when you turn into a side road in the UK also? On the basis they’ve already begun their movement before you were there.
As I understand it, you must give way to a pedestrian *already crossing* a side road you're turning in to. Personally I think it's also good practice to give way to a ped who's obviously wanting to cross even if they're still standing on the pavement, so long as it doesn't cause problems elsewhere. But these are different from an absolute right of way of the same kind as, say, traffic has in a lane alongside you into which you wish to move.
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