Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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Patrick Harper
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by Patrick Harper »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 00:58
Fenlander wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 00:17 It’s OK, we’ll all be flying everywhere in the future. https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/ ... ssion=true

Leeds Bradford Airport expansion plan is approved after eight hour planning meeting
Which would be far more environmentally damaging than dualling a few miles of the A66 to stop people being killed in head on collisions.

The Greens opposing HS2 as well, the true colours are being shown, it's not about the environment, it's about hating movement.
That appears to be a controversial stance within the party.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by KeithW »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 13:30
KeithW wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 18:03 All pandemics come to an end and the the government has not suspended or abolished democracy.
Democracy includes the right to travel where I like in the United Kingdom for any reason, meet anyone I want to meet, protest against any government policy I don't agree with, attend any religious services I choose etc. That right has certainly been suspended.
KeithW wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 18:03 It has introduced emergency regulations that are time limited.
But could be renewed if the government likes them or just doesn't feel like giving up its power.
Emergency conditions like a once in a 100 year global pandemic do tend to disrupt things and require emergency measures. See 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic.

As for retaining the powers his is not going to happen, the government is actually having to work hard to prevent is back benchers from forcing the lifting the restrictions too early and the treasury wants the economy to be restarted ASAP.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by matt-thepie »

KeithW wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:43
matt-thepie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:37 I commute to work using my bicycle not my car. For two reasons, one, it's actually faster due to the congestion on the roads and I don't need to faff about looking for parking, and two, I would rather that those who really need the spaces (disabled, people with kids, people who live far away) had the spaces.

However, the amount of abuse I get from motorists, with alarming regularity, is unacceptable. This is usually caused by cars passing me, then me naturally passing them in the bike lanes by red lights, then them getting frustrated trying to pass me again further down the road, then repeat the cycle. The concept of average speed is entirely lost on them.

Similarly, the hostility towards making more space available for cycles (making cycling safer encourages others to cycle instead of drive, making the roads emptier for those that need to use them) by the general public is really depressing.

We really do need an attitude shift moving forward. The air pollution levels on certain arterial routes in Portsmouth is so bad that the council have been told to take "drastic" action to reduce them. This is likely having serious effects on the health of the children of the same people that oppose any improvement to the infrastructure for cycles etc.
This is fine where it is possible but for many people , especially those in the South East that is simply not possible as I am sure you realise. I lived in London from 1984 to 1996, in that time I worked for 3 different employers in different parts of London. My house was in Stanmore and my last employer was in Colliers Wood. Thats the best part of 20 miles each way, fortunately that was a relatively easy journey by tube on the Jubilee and Northern Line. The one before was in Sunbury, again 20 miles by the shortest route but going round the M25 halved the journey time from 90 minutes to 45 minutes but doubled the distance. Trust me you really wouldn't want to drive or cycle around the North and South Circular during the rush hour.
I live in the South East.
The roads are a shared place, that's just how it is, by all means call for better cycle routes but blaming drivers is no more helpful than blaming cyclists. Telling someone a road is being reduced in capacity to allow for better cycling provision is never going to be popular.
See it's this kind of false dichotomy that makes me despair - I am *not* blaming drivers, I *am* a driver, and a cyclist. Most cyclists are!

And as I said, making more room for cyclists does not increase congestion. There are plenty of examples from other countries where encouraging cycling and providing better public transport has shown this. There are plenty of roads in cities being congested by those who don't need to drive, meaning the ones that do are caught in it. If you make the other options more attractive, then those people don't need to will stop (as nobody likes sitting in a traffic jam).

It's not about blaming anyone. It's about helping people to get out of their cars when they can.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 13:30 Democracy includes the right to travel where I like in the United Kingdom for any reason, meet anyone I want to meet, protest against any government policy I don't agree with, attend any religious services I choose etc. That right has certainly been suspended.
No it doesn't. It literally means government by the people, as I'm sure you are aware. Democratically elected governments can and do curtail citizen's rights all the time, the people in their wisdom have voted to take away my and my family's right to live and work anywhere we like in the European Union for example.

I'm not allowed to go round killing people, as an extreme example, every rational person has already accepted that society has a right to impose limits on freedom for the greater good. Pandemic-related restrictions are exactly the same, my freedom to do what I want is less important than someone else's right to life, no matter how much the restrictions chafe.
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trickstat
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by trickstat »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 13:30
KeithW wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 18:03 All pandemics come to an end and the the government has not suspended or abolished democracy.
Democracy includes the right to travel where I like in the United Kingdom for any reason, meet anyone I want to meet, protest against any government policy I don't agree with, attend any religious services I choose etc. That right has certainly been suspended.
The right to demonstrate has been suspended. The right to protest has not. This is not China, North Korea, Belarus, Myanmar etc.
fras
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by fras »

The right to demonstrate has been suspended. The right to protest has not.
Hm, not sure I understand this one. You can protest, but not actually do anything to show that you are protesting ? So how do I exercise my right to protest ? Ah, I know, write a letter to the Times, that should do it.
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KeithW
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by KeithW »

fras wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 19:11
The right to demonstrate has been suspended. The right to protest has not.
Hm, not sure I understand this one. You can protest, but not actually do anything to show that you are protesting ? So how do I exercise my right to protest ? Ah, I know, write a letter to the Times, that should do it.
There are any number of options- here are three:
Twitter
Facebook
Change.org
https://www.change.org/start-a-petition ... zZEALw_wcB

All will get you more coverage than walking down the high street waving a placard, even Donald Trump figured that much out.
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trickstat
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by trickstat »

KeithW wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 07:37
fras wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 19:11
The right to demonstrate has been suspended. The right to protest has not.
Hm, not sure I understand this one. You can protest, but not actually do anything to show that you are protesting ? So how do I exercise my right to protest ? Ah, I know, write a letter to the Times, that should do it.
There are any number of options- here are three:
Twitter
Facebook
Change.org
https://www.change.org/start-a-petition ... zZEALw_wcB

All will get you more coverage than walking down the high street waving a placard, even Donald Trump figured that much out.
And people can use the likes of Twitter and Facebook to encourage people to sign and further publicise a petition. IIRC 100,000 signatures on a petition on the gov.uk website will result in the matter having to be discussed in Parliament. A similar number marching in Central London only guarantees some news coverage, road closures and a lot of police working at the weekend. This is despite the fact that the latter shows much greater commitment to the cause.

Admittedly an issue that gets 100,000 marching will probably have already been debated in Parliament.
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Jim606
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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I must admit this is a very interesting thread and we are covering a lot of issues around how the Covid situation might change things to do with roads. Work From Home (WFH) is a big issue and perhaps, the main point is; can it continue and is it cost effective? In order to extend the debate, it must be said, that it is not just ‘work’ which has gone online but, a whole range of other activities. These can range from Educational to Religious to Shopping to almost anything within reason?

At my place of work, much of the Open University & HE study programme have now moved over to Zoom. Perhaps, this is a good thing, as many people were having to travel, as mentioned earlier. As for my meditation groups, then they’ve also moved over to Zoom and a ‘Why-Pay’ group phone call. My cycling group has moved to Jitsi. In some ways it has made the delivery programme more efficient. It does however, lack direct interpersonal connection which could be a problem long term for new starters wanting to fit it. It is likely that some form or hybrid of WFH is probably going to stay now that people have got used to the new technologies? I guess it ultimately comes down to saving money and if it's workable long term?

Changing the subject slightly, it is also worth talking about ‘Road Pricing’. It is not just Covid which is the ‘hot topic’ but, ‘Climate Change’. Now, there are many different opinions on these matters, especially Climate Change. But, the old saying; ‘Don’t let a good crisis go to waste' is as applicable as ever. No government has ever been able to bring in road charging due to its unpopularity and the simple fact it would be political-suicide. However, the current situation or situations might change that? Edmund King the President of the AA was quoted in the Guardian in June 2020 as saying; https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/ ... ing-scheme

AA president backs road miles scheme
Edmund King says radical thinking needed to encourage more people to walk and cycle

The president of one of the UK’s biggest motoring organisations has called on the government to introduce a “road miles” pricing system for drivers. Edmund King called for “more radical thinking” from metropolitan and city leaders, saying the changes forced on the public by the crisis offered a huge opportunity to change the UK’s transport systems and behaviours and encourage more people to walk and cycle. Speaking at a virtual conference organised by the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit, King said a car miles – or road miles – system could allow drivers to have the first 3,000 miles free, after which they would have to pay per journey. Those in rural areas would get an extra 1,000 miles free.

“It makes you think about the trip and if you have a cleaner greener vehicle you can pay less … We need some radical thinking and perhaps now the time is right for the Treasury and others to address these bigger issues that politically they have been quite wary of addressing before.”

King highlighted evidence from the AA’s own research that showed its members were ready to change their behaviour.

“Transport patterns won’t be the same in life after lockdown, according to drivers,” he said. “Half say they will walk more; four in 10 vow to drive less; a quarter will work from home more and one fifth will cycle more.”

The idea of a per-mile charging scheme based on the environmental impact of vehicle journeys has gained traction in recent years. In 2017 it was reported that London mayor Sadiq Khan was considering introducing a per-mile charging scheme in the capital and last year the Centre for London thinktank – backed by politicians and business groups – said it would be a more sophisticated approach to road charging and better reflect the true impact of each individual journey than London’s current ultra-low emissions zone.

King’s call follows measures being rolled out in cities around the world to increase support and infrastructure for walking and cycling as clean alternatives to packed public transport – which is not compatible with the social distancing required by the coronavirus crisis.

King said people’s experience of cleaner air, quieter roads – and particularly mass home-working – had created an opportunity that should not be missed.“I am optimistic that this lockdown is beginning to change the attitudes of drivers … If local authorities can put in well planned infrastructure to walk and to cycle – and public transport when that returns – I do feel that can have a credible difference. He added: “The time is right at the moment because people are out there and they themselves had seen the benefits of walking and cycling and running … it is a real opportunity.”
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Just to clarify, the UN has indeed set out Agenda 21/2030 as recommendations, and as a result nearly every country in the world has signed up to it and mostly imposed by legislation otherwise they wouldn't be effective. And it does include phasing out personal transport, that's why so many cities are creating low traffic zones and vehicle restrictions. By 2030 all of Europe will no longer sell any internal combustion engined vehicles including hybrids. They aren't all doing it by chance.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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So non-ICE vehicles, scooters, bicycles, and even skateboards are not personal transport then?

No one is phasing out "private transport". They are correcting the proven social harms of unrestricted petroleum usage.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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DavidNW9 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 21:17 Just to clarify, the UN has indeed set out Agenda 21/2030 as recommendations, and as a result nearly every country in the world has signed up to it and mostly imposed by legislation otherwise they wouldn't be effective. And it does include phasing out personal transport, that's why so many cities are creating low traffic zones and vehicle restrictions. By 2030 all of Europe will no longer sell any internal combustion engined vehicles including hybrids. They aren't all doing it by chance.
Could you please explain where you got that bolded part from?

On reading Agenda 21/2030 there is no outright mention of ending personal transport.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... velopment/
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/fact ... 474884002/

In Agenda 21/2030 the focus is on developing sustainable transport methods.
27. We will seek to build.... sustainable transport systems; and quality and resilient infrastructure.
11.2 By 2030, provide access to safe, affordable, accessible and sustainable transport systems for all, improving road safety, notably by expanding public transport, with special
attention to the needs of those in vulnerable situations, women, children, persons with disabilities and older persons.
One of the main aims of Agenda 21 is to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we use, which pollute and harm our planet. That's why car manufacturers have put so much money into developing electric cars. If personal transport were to be banned then why would they bother?
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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DavidNW9 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 21:17 By 2030 all of Europe will no longer sell any internal combustion engined vehicles including hybrids.
That's not true.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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DavidNW9 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 21:17 Just to clarify, the UN has indeed set out Agenda 21/2030 as recommendations, and as a result nearly every country in the world has signed up to it and mostly imposed by legislation otherwise they wouldn't be effective. And it does include phasing out personal transport, that's why so many cities are creating low traffic zones and vehicle restrictions. By 2030 all of Europe will no longer sell any internal combustion engined vehicles including hybrids. They aren't all doing it by chance.
No it has an aim of providing safe, sustainable and accessible public transport for all which is a quite different issue. Try reading the original instead of the fake news on far right web sites and facebook. As for personal transportation it promotes the idea of encouraging the use of the very first mass produced vehicle for personal transportation - the bicycle.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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To repeat, "Agenda 21/2030" is a far right conspiracy theory, not an actual UN document. It has no place on SABRE.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... velopment/
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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jackal wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 09:19 To repeat, "Agenda 21/2030" is a far right conspiracy theory, not an actual UN document. It has no place on SABRE.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... velopment/
There are it should be said separate documents for Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 which are on the UN web site none of which include the alleged policies.
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/c ... enda21.pdf
https://sdgs.un.org/2030agenda
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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The claim for judicial review has been dismissed by the High Court.

BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57968573
Judgment: https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/tran ... transport/
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

Post by Bryn666 »

As I've said elsewhere, the climate impacts aren't going to come from the roads themselves but all the absolute bin fire development HE want the roads to enable.

RIS2 should be purely about removing dangerous sections of road and improving journey reliability; it should not be using public funds to give developers an head start with concreting over greenfield sites for unsustainable car dependent suburbs and box shed retail.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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Indeed, it shouldn't happen at all but, when it does, providing GS'd junctions should be a planning stipulation. In the case of HE, it usually is but, on LA roads...... :censored: The A140 thread about the Long Stratton bypass being a case in point.
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Re: Road Building Plans to be Halted?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:58 ... for unsustainable car dependent suburbs (although with inadequate provision for actually parking those cars) and box shed retail.
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