A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

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DB617
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by DB617 »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:40 The attempt by the UK government to seize control of transport in Scotland and Wales continues:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56345691
Even the Welsh Government has said that this may not be the case. However I have to agree with Plaid's assessment that typically, the 'Union' projects focus on the connection between England and Wales, not on helping Wales to get what it actually needs which is help with our internal movements in every single settlement. The journeys made on the country's Special Roads don't even come to the same order of magnitude as the number if internal journeys and, indeed, traffic jams...
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by jackal »

DB617 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 18:23 However I have to agree with Plaid's assessment that typically, the 'Union' projects focus on the connection between England and Wales, not on helping Wales to get what it actually needs which is help with our internal movements in every single settlement. The journeys made on the country's Special Roads don't even come to the same order of magnitude as the number if internal journeys and, indeed, traffic jams...
The M4 is by far the busiest road in Wales, and the vast majority of those journeys are 'internal'.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by KeithW »

DB617 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 18:23
wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:40 The attempt by the UK government to seize control of transport in Scotland and Wales continues:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56345691
Even the Welsh Government has said that this may not be the case. However I have to agree with Plaid's assessment that typically, the 'Union' projects focus on the connection between England and Wales, not on helping Wales to get what it actually needs which is help with our internal movements in every single settlement. The journeys made on the country's Special Roads don't even come to the same order of magnitude as the number if internal journeys and, indeed, traffic jams...

Well the Welsh government is in charge of those as a part of having a devolved government.

The interest from the point of view of the UK government is strategic roads such as the M4/A40,A5,A55 ,A483 etc. It would be lovely if Highways England upgraded the A15 and A16 through Lincolnshire but its not going to happen as they are not strategic roads.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Glenn A »

jackal wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 19:31
DB617 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 18:23 However I have to agree with Plaid's assessment that typically, the 'Union' projects focus on the connection between England and Wales, not on helping Wales to get what it actually needs which is help with our internal movements in every single settlement. The journeys made on the country's Special Roads don't even come to the same order of magnitude as the number if internal journeys and, indeed, traffic jams...
The M4 is by far the busiest road in Wales, and the vast majority of those journeys are 'internal'.
It links Wales three biggest settlements and is the only part of Wales to have a motorway. Might not the A55 be Wales second busiest road, as it links Holyhead with England and is very important as a tourist route.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

RJDG14 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:00 In practice, the M6 extends up to Glasgow as the A74(M)/M74.
No way!

Has anyone proposed a renumbering?
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by RJDG14 »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 04:58
RJDG14 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:00 In practice, the M6 extends up to Glasgow as the A74(M)/M74.
No way!

Has anyone proposed a renumbering?
Yes, back in the 1990s. As a matter of fact, nearly all the original A74(M) signs that were installed then have the A74(M) and junction numbers patched onto them, with M6 and the M6 junction number underneath.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:30
hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 04:58
RJDG14 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:00 In practice, the M6 extends up to Glasgow as the A74(M)/M74.
No way!

Has anyone proposed a renumbering?
Yes, back in the 1990s. As a matter of fact, nearly all the original A74(M) signs that were installed then have the A74(M) and junction numbers patched onto them, with M6 and the M6 junction number underneath.
In all the hundred or so previous discussions of this, I don't remember seeing any previous mention of the junction numbers being on patches.

Though I was away from the board from late 2018 to late 2020, so I may have missed a few.

There's fairly extensive documentation now that for most of the 1990s the plan was to rename it M6 on completion.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by RJDG14 »

wrinkly wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:18
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:30
hoagy_ytfc wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 04:58

No way!

Has anyone proposed a renumbering?
Yes, back in the 1990s. As a matter of fact, nearly all the original A74(M) signs that were installed then have the A74(M) and junction numbers patched onto them, with M6 and the M6 junction number underneath.
In all the hundred or so previous discussions of this, I don't remember seeing any previous mention of the junction numbers being on patches.

Though I was away from the board from late 2018 to late 2020, so I may have missed a few.

There's fairly extensive documentation now that for most of the 1990s the plan was to rename it M6 on completion.
Would that have been right up to Glasgow or to where it became the M74?
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:32
wrinkly wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:18 There's fairly extensive documentation now that for most of the 1990s the plan was to rename it M6 on completion.
Would that have been right up to Glasgow or to where it became the M74?
Most of the evidence is that it would have been M6 all the way, but it's not 100% consistent.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by RJDG14 »

wrinkly wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:37
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:32
wrinkly wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:18 There's fairly extensive documentation now that for most of the 1990s the plan was to rename it M6 on completion.
Would that have been right up to Glasgow or to where it became the M74?
Most of the evidence is that it would have been M6 all the way, but it's not 100% consistent.
Do you know why the proposals fell through? It would have made a lot of sense for it to have extended to Glasgow, as the M6, A74(M) and M74 all essentially feel like the same motorway.

What I understand the least would be why the Scottish stretch of the Coventry - Glasgow route (all 3 roads combined) has 2 numbers - it's the M74 from Glasgow to Abington and the A74(M) from Abington to Gretna, yet the two route number variants share the same junction numbering scheme. The A74(M) is also an anomaly under the Scottish numbering system, whereby a motorway will generally supersede an A road, with the A road being downgraded to a B road and the motorway taking on the A road's number in the form of M(number).
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Bryn666 »

I think the SABRE Wiki covers all this in great detail, it's a good place to look. :)
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by A72 »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:57Do you know why the proposals fell through?
One word: Devolution.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Chris5156 »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:57Do you know why the proposals fell through? It would have made a lot of sense for it to have extended to Glasgow, as the M6, A74(M) and M74 all essentially feel like the same motorway.

What I understand the least would be why the Scottish stretch of the Coventry - Glasgow route (all 3 roads combined) has 2 numbers - it's the M74 from Glasgow to Abington and the A74(M) from Abington to Gretna, yet the two route number variants share the same junction numbering scheme. The A74(M) is also an anomaly under the Scottish numbering system, whereby a motorway will generally supersede an A road, with the A road being downgraded to a B road and the motorway taking on the A road's number in the form of M(number).
I think all of this is covered in the extensive and brilliant coverage on the SABRE Wiki - M74 and A74(M) History. Wrinkly contributed a lot of that material IIRC. If you haven't read it before it's an excellent place to start.

From the SABRE Wiki: M74 and A74(M) History :

The M74 and A74(M) are motorways in southern Scotland, the latter being a southward continuation of the former. Considered together, they run from Glasgow to a point just south of the English border near Gretna, where they meet the M6. They form the only substantially-D3M long-distance rural motorway in Scotland. (The A74(M) is D3M throughout; the M74 is a mixture of D2M and D3M, with some sections near Glasgow widened to D4M in 2017.)

To restate

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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by RJDG14 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 15:52
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:57Do you know why the proposals fell through? It would have made a lot of sense for it to have extended to Glasgow, as the M6, A74(M) and M74 all essentially feel like the same motorway.

What I understand the least would be why the Scottish stretch of the Coventry - Glasgow route (all 3 roads combined) has 2 numbers - it's the M74 from Glasgow to Abington and the A74(M) from Abington to Gretna, yet the two route number variants share the same junction numbering scheme. The A74(M) is also an anomaly under the Scottish numbering system, whereby a motorway will generally supersede an A road, with the A road being downgraded to a B road and the motorway taking on the A road's number in the form of M(number).
I think all of this is covered in the extensive and brilliant coverage on the SABRE Wiki - M74 and A74(M) History. Wrinkly contributed a lot of that material IIRC. If you haven't read it before it's an excellent place to start.
I've certainly read some of that article before, so thanks for reminding me of it. If I could travel back 40 years in the UK, one of my first goals would be to explore the former A74, along with exploring Bath and Swindon where I've lived/currently live. I doubt Bath would have looked that different to what it was in the early 2000s when I lived there, but Swindon has certainly changed a reasonable amount since 1981.

May I ask if the wiki preview below my post is a new feature, related to the wiki link in my quote, since I've never seen it before?
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From the SABRE Wiki: M74 and A74(M) History :

The M74 and A74(M) are motorways in southern Scotland, the latter being a southward continuation of the former. Considered together, they run from Glasgow to a point just south of the English border near Gretna, where they meet the M6. They form the only substantially-D3M long-distance rural motorway in Scotland. (The A74(M) is D3M throughout; the M74 is a mixture of D2M and D3M, with some sections near Glasgow widened to D4M in 2017.)

To restate

... Read More
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 15:59 May I ask if the wiki preview below my post is a new feature, related to the wiki link in my quote, since I've never seen it before?
It's been like that for a few years now. If your post links a wiki page, or includes a quote which links the page, then the start of the page appears at the bottom of your post.

A72's one-word answer is correct, as far as anyone knows.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by RJDG14 »

wrinkly wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 16:17
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 15:59 May I ask if the wiki preview below my post is a new feature, related to the wiki link in my quote, since I've never seen it before?
It's been like that for a few years now. If your post links a wiki page, or includes a quote which links the page, then the start of the page appears at the bottom of your post.

A72's one-word answer is correct, as far as anyone knows.
Ah - I just hadn't noticed it before, though that's what I guessed.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by KeithW »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 15:59

I've certainly read some of that article before, so thanks for reminding me of it. If I could travel back 40 years in the UK, one of my first goals would be to explore the former A74, along with exploring Bath and Swindon where I've lived/currently live. I doubt Bath would have looked that different to what it was in the early 2000s when I lived there, but Swindon has certainly changed a reasonable amount since 1981.

May I ask if the wiki preview below my post is a new feature, related to the wiki link in my quote, since I've never seen it before?
Sabre maps will help you do that. As it happens apart from the east it hasnt changed much, from Cambridge to Bathford it used to run down London Road West and London Road E.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Owain »

KeithW wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 22:27
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 15:59

I've certainly read some of that article before, so thanks for reminding me of it. If I could travel back 40 years in the UK, one of my first goals would be to explore the former A74, along with exploring Bath and Swindon where I've lived/currently live. I doubt Bath would have looked that different to what it was in the early 2000s when I lived there, but Swindon has certainly changed a reasonable amount since 1981.

May I ask if the wiki preview below my post is a new feature, related to the wiki link in my quote, since I've never seen it before?
Sabre maps will help you do that. As it happens apart from the east it hasnt changed much, from Cambridge to Bathford it used to run down London Road West and London Road E.
When I lived in Frome and worked in Worcester (!) I used to bemoan the absence of a bypass for Bath. Somebody pointed out that it had the Batheaston bypass, but that is indeed a bypass for Batheaston that does nothing whatsoever for the city of Bath.

I think the only changes that RJDG14 would be likely to notice on the city side of the original A46 terminus would be the painting of bus lanes on London Road, and the quite recent rerouting of the A36 along Rossiter Road (one-way system replaced by two-way traffic on that road, removing through traffic from St Matthew's Place and Claverton Street).
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Osthagen »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:32 Would that have been right up to Glasgow or to where it became the M74?
Evidence for what the plan was is relatively slim. What we do know favours the former, although the signs with ‘M6’ covered by patches only exist on the A74(M) even though there are sections of M74 which were opened contemporaneously with the A74(M) in the 1990s before the plan to renumber as M6 was shelved.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

Osthagen wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 00:22
RJDG14 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 13:32 Would that have been right up to Glasgow or to where it became the M74?
Evidence for what the plan was is relatively slim.
There's not only the evidence of patched signs. The following quotes have been in the wiki page for years:

M74 and A74(M) History
At the opening ceremony [of the first phase 3 section, J12-13] on 29 November [1991], Ian Lang, the Secretary of State for Scotland, announced that on completion the entire route would be renamed M6. Until then the project (or at least the section north of the border) had only ever been referred to as M74. The section opened that day was known as M74 at the time, and still is.

[snip]

in the Edinburgh Gazette of 1 May, 1992, an Explanatory Note was appended to a routine notice announcing the making of the Scheme for a section of the route north and south of Beattock. This read:
EXPLANATORY NOTE

The Scheme and associated Appropriation and Side Roads Orders published in draft on 31st August 1990 included reference to the Glasgow-Carlisle Special Road (M74). The Secretary of State has decided to change the number of the upgraded sections of the Glasgow-Carlisle Trunk Road (A74) lying to the south of where the existing M74 ends at Nether Abington. Each section, on completion of upgrading, will be renumbered A74(M). Once all the sections of the A74 between Carlisle and Nether Abington have been upgraded, the entire length of the M74 and the A74(M) from Glasgow to Carlisle will be renumbered, and form part of, the M6. The Scheme and associated Orders have been amended to reflect these changes, where necessary.
[snip]
Over the next two years the same note appeared in relation to two other sections for which orders had been published in draft before the A74(M) decision but were made after it.
However there is some conflicting evidence, from an opening booklet for one of the sections, that it would only become M6 as far as J12 (or it may have been J13). This was mentioned in the forums some years ago but I've never yet got round to adding it to the wiki page.

From the SABRE Wiki: M74 and A74(M) History :

The M74 and A74(M) are motorways in southern Scotland, the latter being a southward continuation of the former. Considered together, they run from Glasgow to a point just south of the English border near Gretna, where they meet the M6. They form the only substantially-D3M long-distance rural motorway in Scotland. (The A74(M) is D3M throughout; the M74 is a mixture of D2M and D3M, with some sections near Glasgow widened to D4M in 2017.)

To restate

... Read More
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