A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

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wrinkly
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:10 Actually i do think they really are looking at this -

They are looking at fossil fuels, and reducing the use of - Dont the ferries use a significant amount of fuel ? how many crossings a day ?

Building a motorway or a purpose designed road link from the border to portpatrick would allow them to electrify that route if needed, an online upgrade, imagine trying to upgrade that later for electrification. going towards an integrated transport solution that links ireland to the mainland uk is needed and it isnt beyond the technology that we have. it may be a challenge but its doable. A fixed link would be a huge benefit indeed,
This has nothing to do with decarbonisation and everything to do with Johnson's belief that he can save the union by undermining devolution - and his love of big projects for their own sake, regardless of relevance, and especially when they have his name on them.

If Johnson was seriously interested in decarbonisation there are dozens of other things he could have done by now - and within powers he undoubtedly has, without trying to encroach on the powers of the Scottish and Welsh governments. Only a few days ago the Public Accounts Committee said the government has no decarbonisation plan:

https://committees.parliament.uk/commit ... et-in-law/

Edit: The Scotsman has this:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/u ... r-BB1erGl7

And this seems to be what the stories are based on:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/move ... -of-the-uk
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by KeithW »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:40 The attempt by the UK government to seize control of transport in Scotland and Wales continues:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56345691
To be fair what was implied was that extra funding could be made available for the Welsh Government to build it, given that the M4 flows through both England and Wales this makes a degree of sense.
Mr Shapps said the review "says we will primarily look to work with devolved administrations - the Welsh Government in this case - to help to build, construct, with assistance where appropriate, and maintain these things".

The transport minister added that "the M4 relief road was the most obvious way" to deal with congestion.

What about public transport improvements?
The UK government said it would fund a £20m project to look at a wide-range development of projects identified by the review, across the UK.

As part of that, it would look at rail improvements in south-east Wales building on ideas from the Welsh Government's Burns Commission, which proposed spending £800m on public transport to deal with the bottle necks on the M4 around Newport.
Rail improvements would be done by Network Rail which is a UK government responsibility. This raises a question about plans by the SNP for rail management and improvements in an Independent Scotland.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

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The interim report seems to stop short of any actual proposals. There doesn't even seem to be a list of potential proposals that will now be considered. We must wait for the final report.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

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There seems to be some disappointment on this side of the North Channel that the A77 has been overlooked while the A75 has been talked about:

https://planetradio.co.uk/west/local/ne ... oup-anger/

Apparently local campaigners were previously told that the A77 would be acknowledged in the report.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by A72 »

KeithW wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 08:35
A72 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 04:21 It's probably a typo. I think they may have meant M73, or M77.
Given that the story dates from 2004 and refers to Govanhill I suspect that it does indeed refer to the M74 extension between Junctions 1 to 3 which opened in 2011
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-13931242
We know. 8-)

This is the sentence that was being queried:
BBC wrote:Under the PPP option the private firm would also be responsible for maintaining an additional 60 miles of motorway, the M74 north of Douglas in South Lanarkshire, the M75 and the M8 within Glasgow.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by orudge »

I’d assume it was meant to refer to the M73, or perhaps even A725. Obviously the M8/M73/M74 programme (which also involved works on the A725) did go ahead after the M74 completion.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Micro The Maniac »

A72 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 16:41 This is the sentence that was being queried:
BBC wrote:Under the PPP option the private firm would also be responsible for maintaining an additional 60 miles of motorway, the M74 north of Douglas in South Lanarkshire, the M75 and the M8 within Glasgow.
Given that (a) in Scotland, motorways take the number of the A road they replace/bypass, and (b) the A75 goes west from Carlisle and nowhere near Glasgow, this is clearly an error.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

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Euan wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 15:57 There seems to be some disappointment on this side of the North Channel that the A77 has been overlooked while the A75 has been talked about:

https://planetradio.co.uk/west/local/ne ... oup-anger/

Apparently local campaigners were previously told that the A77 would be acknowledged in the report.
The A77 was mentioned but not in any detail and of course one of the worst bottlenecks - Maybole, is getting a bypass. From the point of the UK as a whole the A75 could be regarded as a more important route as HGV's to/from Cairnryan will be using the A75 to Gretna to pick up routes to the south via the M6 and A66/A1.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Euan »

KeithW wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 18:35
Euan wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 15:57 There seems to be some disappointment on this side of the North Channel that the A77 has been overlooked while the A75 has been talked about:

https://planetradio.co.uk/west/local/ne ... oup-anger/

Apparently local campaigners were previously told that the A77 would be acknowledged in the report.
The A77 was mentioned but not in any detail and of course one of the worst bottlenecks - Maybole, is getting a bypass. From the point of the UK as a whole the A75 could be regarded as a more important route as HGV's to/from Cairnryan will be using the A75 to Gretna to pick up routes to the south via the M6 and A66/A1.
Over longer distances yes, I would say that the A75 is strategically more important than the A77. I think what the A77 Action Group may have been pointing out was that generally the A75 is already of higher quality than the A77 between Ayr and Stranraer. The Maybole bypass will definitely make a difference, although to the south the A77 does generally run through more difficult terrain than the A75 which would make substantial improvements to the A75 a bit easier than for the A77.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Chris5156 »

wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:03
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:10 Actually i do think they really are looking at this -

They are looking at fossil fuels, and reducing the use of - Dont the ferries use a significant amount of fuel ? how many crossings a day ?

Building a motorway or a purpose designed road link from the border to portpatrick would allow them to electrify that route if needed, an online upgrade, imagine trying to upgrade that later for electrification. going towards an integrated transport solution that links ireland to the mainland uk is needed and it isnt beyond the technology that we have. it may be a challenge but its doable. A fixed link would be a huge benefit indeed,
This has nothing to do with decarbonisation and everything to do with Johnson's belief that he can save the union by undermining devolution - and his love of big projects for their own sake, regardless of relevance, and especially when they have his name on them.
There's also the consideration that building a 21-mile bridge or tunnel will create substantial carbon emissions through the construction process - probably more than the existing ferry services would generate over a period measured in decades. Just because an electric train might run once it's built doesn't mean it's green to build it!
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by A72 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 18:27
A72 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 16:41 This is the sentence that was being queried:
BBC wrote:Under the PPP option the private firm would also be responsible for maintaining an additional 60 miles of motorway, the M74 north of Douglas in South Lanarkshire, the M75 and the M8 within Glasgow.
Given that (a) in Scotland, motorways take the number of the A road they replace/bypass, and (b) the A75 goes west from Carlisle and nowhere near Glasgow, this is clearly an error.
I know, and this was what I alluded to, in my original response to RJDG14's query.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Al__S »

Gav wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 20:05 20 million... how many miles will that build ?
As others have said, this is simply a consultancy fee getting 0 miles, especially as the Northern Ireland fixed link idea is not going to produce an actual crossing. But looking at the A14 C2H project, and being generous about the extent (Ellington to Milton) but honest about the cost (at least £1.8billion) it gets you, erm, about 0.25 miles.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Gav »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:48
wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:03
Gav wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:10 Actually i do think they really are looking at this -

They are looking at fossil fuels, and reducing the use of - Dont the ferries use a significant amount of fuel ? how many crossings a day ?

Building a motorway or a purpose designed road link from the border to portpatrick would allow them to electrify that route if needed, an online upgrade, imagine trying to upgrade that later for electrification. going towards an integrated transport solution that links ireland to the mainland uk is needed and it isnt beyond the technology that we have. it may be a challenge but its doable. A fixed link would be a huge benefit indeed,
This has nothing to do with decarbonisation and everything to do with Johnson's belief that he can save the union by undermining devolution - and his love of big projects for their own sake, regardless of relevance, and especially when they have his name on them.
There's also the consideration that building a 21-mile bridge or tunnel will create substantial carbon emissions through the construction process - probably more than the existing ferry services would generate over a period measured in decades. Just because an electric train might run once it's built doesn't mean it's green to build it!
Nope dirty to build, but long term over the design life of the structure it provides a net reduction in the co2 production and use of hydrocarbon fuels to power the ships and the long term maintenenace required to keep a ferry service going.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Phil »

KeithW wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:28
wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 13:40 The attempt by the UK government to seize control of transport in Scotland and Wales continues:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56345691
To be fair what was implied was that extra funding could be made available for the Welsh Government to build it, given that the M4 flows through both England and Wales this makes a degree of sense.
Mr Shapps said the review "says we will primarily look to work with devolved administrations - the Welsh Government in this case - to help to build, construct, with assistance where appropriate, and maintain these things".

The transport minister added that "the M4 relief road was the most obvious way" to deal with congestion.

What about public transport improvements?
The UK government said it would fund a £20m project to look at a wide-range development of projects identified by the review, across the UK.

As part of that, it would look at rail improvements in south-east Wales building on ideas from the Welsh Government's Burns Commission, which proposed spending £800m on public transport to deal with the bottle necks on the M4 around Newport.
Rail improvements would be done by Network Rail which is a UK government responsibility. This raises a question about plans by the SNP for rail management and improvements in an Independent Scotland.
The point is its NOT money that will be the issue - the Welsh Government have rejected the M4 relief road on the basis of the urgent need to tackle climate change by constraining car growth.

Basically as far as the Welsh are concerned if people are fed up being stuck in queues around Newport then they should take the train. Any new road space or easing of congestion has been PROVED to attract more car use - and even pro-roads people need to swallow this bitter pill.

The offer of cash is thus going to be rejected unless there is a change as to which party runs the Welsh Government or Boris decides to reverse devolution!
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

Al__S wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 07:02
Gav wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 20:05 20 million... how many miles will that build ?
As others have said, this is simply a consultancy fee getting 0 miles, especially as the Northern Ireland fixed link idea is not going to produce an actual crossing. But looking at the A14 C2H project, and being generous about the extent (Ellington to Milton) but honest about the cost (at least £1.8billion) it gets you, erm, about 0.25 miles.
Also the £20M is not all for the A75:
To jump-start some of the projects identified by Sir Peter, the government has today committed £20 million towards exploring the development of projects such as:

improved rail connectivity between the north coast of Wales and England
upgrading the A75 between Gretna, Dumfries and Stranraer – a key route for south-west Scotland and Northern Ireland but almost entirely single-carriageway
significantly faster rail links from England to Scotland, including looking at options to enhance the West Coast Main Line
rail improvements in south-east Wales, building on ideas from the Welsh Government’s Burns Commission
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Bryn666 »

Gav wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:51
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:48
wrinkly wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 14:03

This has nothing to do with decarbonisation and everything to do with Johnson's belief that he can save the union by undermining devolution - and his love of big projects for their own sake, regardless of relevance, and especially when they have his name on them.
There's also the consideration that building a 21-mile bridge or tunnel will create substantial carbon emissions through the construction process - probably more than the existing ferry services would generate over a period measured in decades. Just because an electric train might run once it's built doesn't mean it's green to build it!
Nope dirty to build, but long term over the design life of the structure it provides a net reduction in the co2 production and use of hydrocarbon fuels to power the ships and the long term maintenenace required to keep a ferry service going.
Whereas maintaining a 100 mile motorway and 25 mile tunnel is not at all resource intensive whatsoever.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Gav »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 14:08
Gav wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:51
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 21:48
There's also the consideration that building a 21-mile bridge or tunnel will create substantial carbon emissions through the construction process - probably more than the existing ferry services would generate over a period measured in decades. Just because an electric train might run once it's built doesn't mean it's green to build it!
Nope dirty to build, but long term over the design life of the structure it provides a net reduction in the co2 production and use of hydrocarbon fuels to power the ships and the long term maintenenace required to keep a ferry service going.
Whereas maintaining a 100 mile motorway and 25 mile tunnel is not at all resource intensive whatsoever.
so how many vessels ply the route ? whats thier mpg ? Service life, build costs and maintenance costs. How much in the way of emissions is generated by a vessel from design to scrap. it would suprise you. yup you could probably get a few boats out of the construction costs of a fixed bridge tunnel but then again a ship is more exposed to the weather, where as a bridge is a fixed link. different definition of resources indeed.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by AndyB »

Which raises the question of the emissions created by a ferry filled to capacity on a journey of 25 miles against the same vehicles driving the same distance...
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by Glenn A »

The main problem with the A75 upgrade in the late eighties and early nineties was it was done on the cheap, with very little D2. I know for a considerable part of the day, when there are no ferries at Cairnryan, it is relatively quiet, but at other times there are large numbers of HGVs and also the added problem of tractors in summer causing tailbacks. Also there are several nasty bends near Dumfries and Crocketford, one of the few places on the road that hasn't been by passed and has a 30mph speed limit.
I would at the very least suggest dualling the A75 from Gretna to Dumfries, which is relatively easy, and having a D2 by pass of Crocketford.
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Re: A75 "Motorway" Upgrade

Post by wrinkly »

Transport Scotland press release

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/cab ... -minister/
Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity, Michael Matheson has written to the Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps following the publication of the Union Connectivity Review Interim Report.

In the letter, Mr Matheson urges the UK Government to use its role to improve transport connectivity to Scotland, without encroaching on devolved powers.
The actual letter is worth reading and begins like this:
Further to our call on 8 March, when we discussed the publication of the UK Government Union Connectivity Review Interim Report, I am writing to you to set out why the Scottish Government disagrees with the premise of the Review; the way in which it was established; the lack of consideration given to the role of the devolved administrations in relation to transport investment; and the ways in which the UKGovernment could use its role to improve transport connectivity to Scotland, without encroaching on devolved powers.
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