Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
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- Nathan_A_RF
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Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
The new B1538 link road from the M180/M18 roundabout opened a few weeks ago and there's 2021 street view here now! Taking a look at the signs, it makes me think there's some legal motorway stuff that didn't get changed.
First of all, the old road to the services was not under motorway regulations, and there were start and end [of motorway regulations] signs at the M180/M18 roundabout confirming this. The new dual carriageway from the new services roundabout and the M180/M18 roundabout is mostly on line with the old services access road, and these motorway start and end signs are in the same place as they were before (as is the roundabout junction sign). Hence, the dual carriageway does not appear to be under motorway regulations, and the new signs confirm this (kind of, sort of, definitely), as well as a map from the council. Now given this, is this an inescapable road to a motorway because the legislation was not changed from the previous slip road, or is the signage not updated or correct? Highways England have not seemed to have updated their signs yet at all to mention the B1538. But the new signs are from the council on the link road aren't they, so those should be up to date.
I'd love to know what the hell is going on here and who messed up what.
First of all, the old road to the services was not under motorway regulations, and there were start and end [of motorway regulations] signs at the M180/M18 roundabout confirming this. The new dual carriageway from the new services roundabout and the M180/M18 roundabout is mostly on line with the old services access road, and these motorway start and end signs are in the same place as they were before (as is the roundabout junction sign). Hence, the dual carriageway does not appear to be under motorway regulations, and the new signs confirm this (kind of, sort of, definitely), as well as a map from the council. Now given this, is this an inescapable road to a motorway because the legislation was not changed from the previous slip road, or is the signage not updated or correct? Highways England have not seemed to have updated their signs yet at all to mention the B1538. But the new signs are from the council on the link road aren't they, so those should be up to date.
I'd love to know what the hell is going on here and who messed up what.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
It's a legal screw up, quelle surprise.Nathan_A_RF wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 00:09 The new B1538 link road from the M180/M18 roundabout opened a few weeks ago and there's 2021 street view here now! Taking a look at the signs, it makes me think there's some legal motorway stuff that didn't get changed.
First of all, the old road to the services was not under motorway regulations, and there were start and end [of motorway regulations] signs at the M180/M18 roundabout confirming this. The new dual carriageway from the new services roundabout and the M180/M18 roundabout is mostly on line with the old services access road, and these motorway start and end signs are in the same place as they were before (as is the roundabout junction sign). Hence, the dual carriageway does not appear to be under motorway regulations, and the new signs confirm this (kind of, sort of, definitely), as well as a map from the council. Now given this, is this an inescapable road to a motorway because the legislation was not changed from the previous slip road, or is the signage not updated or correct? Highways England have not seemed to have updated their signs yet at all to mention the B1538. But the new signs are from the council on the link road aren't they, so those should be up to date.
I'd love to know what the hell is going on here and who messed up what.
https://goo.gl/maps/B3rPwU4rJVW6Ef21A - this is different to how it looked in December, when there was a start of motorway sign on the left.
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
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- Nathan_A_RF
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Well with that technically incorrect sign gone, I'm guessing the new "motorway traffic only" sign isn't legally enforceable, so this does mean then the road is technically "limbo" for non-motorway traffic? Can't go forward or reverse on this road without breaking the law as it's one-way.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Is there a reason they’ve put double yellows down (always looks odd on a dual carriageway to me) instead of making it a clearway? Or, of course, a motorway...
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- Conekicker
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Sweet Baby Jesus and all the orphans, does no one at Doncaster know what they are doing?
He asked rhetorically.
Signing/legal issues for the new link were raised at the design stage - and ignored by the looks of it.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59121 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Really?
He asked rhetorically.
Signing/legal issues for the new link were raised at the design stage - and ignored by the looks of it.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59121 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Really?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Surprised it's taken this long to get noticed on here. It's an absolute shambles.
- Patrick Harper
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Looks like there are only two correct options - 'despecialise' the M18/M180 roundabout, or 'specialise' the former services link road, making it a western extension of M180.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
I never fail to be disappointed by the ability of highways authorities to make a massive mess of this sort of thing. It really isn't difficult stuff...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Given what's happened to the A601(M) roundabout, I suspect the former may eventually happen.Patrick Harper wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 09:36 Looks like there are only two correct options - 'despecialise' the M18/M180 roundabout, or 'specialise' the former services link road, making it a western extension of M180.
Owen Rudge
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
I mentioned the potential problem in the first post of a short thread about the scheme in 2018:
I haven't been near since it opened because of the pandemic.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
I'm surprised HE haven't made a right fuss, given the hassle they've given me over a proposed access for a minor development off a shockingly low standard NSL dual carriageway near somewhere that rhymes with Barbie.Conekicker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 08:52 Sweet Baby Jesus and all the orphans, does no one at Doncaster know what they are doing?
He asked rhetorically.
Signing/legal issues for the new link were raised at the design stage - and ignored by the looks of it.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59121 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Really?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
![Facepalm :facepalm:](./images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.jackal wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it![]()
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Conekicker
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
You'd need to ask the firm of consultants who "designed", (and I use that word in it's most incompetent form), the signing when the MSA was built. They were (of course) told their designs, "needed a careful review to ensure they complied with standards, as some aspects seemed deficient", when they tabled them, but there seems to be an amount of deafness associated with that part of the world. Meh.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:28The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.jackal wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it![]()
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Brings a tear of joy to your eye doesn't it?Conekicker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:39You'd need to ask the firm of consultants who "designed", (and I use that word in it's most incompetent form), the signing when the MSA was built. They were (of course) told their designs, "needed a careful review to ensure they complied with standards, as some aspects seemed deficient", when they tabled them, but there seems to be an amount of deafness associated with that part of the world. Meh.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:28The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.jackal wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it![]()
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Steven
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
What it boils down to is that Highways England, once again, entirely fails to understand even the concept of Special Roads.
I usually say at this point "but it can't be that difficult, surely? I'm a layperson and I understand them", but clearly yes, it is too difficult a concept for actual people who are paid to do this to grasp.
I usually say at this point "but it can't be that difficult, surely? I'm a layperson and I understand them", but clearly yes, it is too difficult a concept for actual people who are paid to do this to grasp.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Yes, it looks like you're right. The former services access appears to have been detrunked as part of this work, so Doncaster MBC's bit is entirely all purpose, and HE's bit is entirely motorway, with the two responsibilities smashing into one another at the entry to the roundabout.Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:07Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
Still, the rant about people who should know about these things being clueless where it comes to Special Roads stands.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
It wasn't a dig... more surprise but I see your post now. It's not rocket science that's the thing... when I found out about the plans I always wondered what they'd do, and it turns out.. nothing much.
Of course someone will say it doesn't matter.....
- Conekicker
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?
Bottom line is that it's a local authority scheme, on land that doesn't belong to HE. If the local authority don't listen when told, for whatever reason(s), there's very little to nothing HE can do about it.Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:07Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.