Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51
Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:39
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:28

The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.
You'd need to ask the firm of consultants who "designed", (and I use that word in it's most incompetent form), the signing when the MSA was built. They were (of course) told their designs, "needed a careful review to ensure they complied with standards, as some aspects seemed deficient", when they tabled them, but there seems to be an amount of deafness associated with that part of the world. Meh.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Would I be breaking the law if I cycled up the road to the roundabout, then lifted my bike over the central barrier and cycled back down again?

Just asking.... :D :D
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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XC70 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:17 Would I be breaking the law if I cycled up the road to the roundabout, then lifted my bike over the central barrier and cycled back down again?

Just asking.... :D :D
No.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.
M180.pdf
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Patrick Harper wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 09:36 Looks like there are only two correct options - 'despecialise' the M18/M180 roundabout, or 'specialise' the former services link road, making it a western extension of M180.
The third option would be to impose a TRO and erect something along the lines of this at the start of the link up to the motorway roundabout, AFTER DfT had authorised it of course. Although that would assume there was someone with the gumption to write an appropriate TRO at the local authority to cover the sign.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4866.pdf

And yes, it's a messy solution.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:56
jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.M180.pdf
Funny you mention that, I'd come up with this last night...
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M180braindump.png
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:29
Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:56
jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.M180.pdf
Funny you mention that, I'd come up with this last night...
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the fact there are two airports now.

Edit: on the airports sign, shouldn't the motorway symbol always be on the right side on the panel? So the panels would appear as

Airport name - Plane symbol - Motorway symbol

Not that it would impact on the sign size at all.
Airports.pdf
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Last edited by Conekicker on Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:33
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:29
Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:56 Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.M180.pdf
Funny you mention that, I'd come up with this last night...
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the fact there are two airports now.
Also very sneaky of HE to happily route everyone down a local authority A road instead of the purpose built new link from the M18, when their own network is barely a minute slower even factoring in the massive U shape the A6182 creates in a trip...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:56Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.M180.pdf
You're removing the grade separation from the M18 and having through traffic use the roundabout? 😳
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Stevie D wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:49
Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 15:56Keeping things as simple as possible, it's not a difficult sign to design.M180.pdf
You're removing the grade separation from the M18 and having through traffic use the roundabout? 😳
There's no legal requirement to show the exact layout of the roundabout. The simple circle I chose is as valid as the more complicated one Bryn used. Remember this sign would be on the link from the services and now also the B road.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:36Also very sneaky of HE to happily route everyone down a local authority A road instead of the purpose built new link from the M18, when their own network is barely a minute slower even factoring in the massive U shape the A6182 creates in a trip...
If you're suggesting that traffic to Robin Hood Airport should be directed down A614, I disagree with that. It's a poor route, with a nasty junction where it turns off A18 (although worse heading north) and then going through the villages of Hatfield Woodhouse and Blaxton, several busy junctions and a level crossing. The route via the new link road is far more suitable to direct traffic along, even if it may be a minute or two slower than the old route is while traffic is not directed to use it.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:54There's no legal requirement to show the exact layout of the roundabout. The simple circle I chose is as valid as the more complicated one Bryn used. Remember this sign would be on the link from the services and now also the B road.
Signs should indicate where the road being crossed is grade-separated. No, it doesn't need to show the exact layout, but that is a fundamental feature that is required to be shown where applicable.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Stevie D wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:57
Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:54There's no legal requirement to show the exact layout of the roundabout. The simple circle I chose is as valid as the more complicated one Bryn used. Remember this sign would be on the link from the services and now also the B road.
Signs should indicate where the road being crossed is grade-separated. No, it doesn't need to show the exact layout, but that is a fundamental feature that is required to be shown where applicable.
No LEGAL requirement. I did say I was keeping things as simple as possible.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Stevie D wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:56
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:36Also very sneaky of HE to happily route everyone down a local authority A road instead of the purpose built new link from the M18, when their own network is barely a minute slower even factoring in the massive U shape the A6182 creates in a trip...
If you're suggesting that traffic to Robin Hood Airport should be directed down A614, I disagree with that. It's a poor route, with a nasty junction where it turns off A18 (although worse heading north) and then going through the villages of Hatfield Woodhouse and Blaxton, several busy junctions and a level crossing. The route via the new link road is far more suitable to direct traffic along, even if it may be a minute or two slower than the old route is while traffic is not directed to use it.
No, current signs send everyone down the A614, despite the several miles longer trunk road/A6182 route being only a minute slower despite being higher quality and more reliable. They have just failed to update signs on the wider network since the A6182 was completed.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 17:39
Stevie D wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:56
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:36Also very sneaky of HE to happily route everyone down a local authority A road instead of the purpose built new link from the M18, when their own network is barely a minute slower even factoring in the massive U shape the A6182 creates in a trip...
If you're suggesting that traffic to Robin Hood Airport should be directed down A614, I disagree with that. It's a poor route, with a nasty junction where it turns off A18 (although worse heading north) and then going through the villages of Hatfield Woodhouse and Blaxton, several busy junctions and a level crossing. The route via the new link road is far more suitable to direct traffic along, even if it may be a minute or two slower than the old route is while traffic is not directed to use it.
No, current signs send everyone down the A614, despite the several miles longer trunk road/A6182 route being only a minute slower despite being higher quality and more reliable. They have just failed to update signs on the wider network since the A6182 was completed.
I think that's because the airport wouldn't put their hand in their pocket at the time. There's a lot of signs that would need changing in the vicinity of J5, several of them on gantries. Throw in the fact that you couldn't do it piecemeal and still have a coherent set of signs and, well...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:29
Funny you mention that, I'd come up with this last night...
Looks good though, I would include the A1(M) on the ADS too.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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thatapanydude wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 17:54
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 16:29
Funny you mention that, I'd come up with this last night...
Looks good though, I would include the A1(M) on the ADS too.
Easy there tiger, it's already overloaded with destinations as it is!
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 17:39No, current signs send everyone down the A614, despite the several miles longer trunk road/A6182 route being only a minute slower despite being higher quality and more reliable. They have just failed to update signs on the wider network since the A6182 was completed.
Ah, got it, I see what you mean. I'm so used to seeing the signs directing traffic for Robin Hood to use J3 that I hadn't twigged whether they were before or after J5.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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There's a (weak IMHO) argument that says sending southbound traffic for Robin Hood onto the M180/A18/A614 route reduces congestion at J3. In much the same way that signing A1 northbound traffic off at Blyth onto the A614 does.

The southbound exit slip at J3 isn't exactly long, with associated low queueing capacity before it backs up onto the mainline, so at morning peak it might be just about a valid argument. Maybe.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 22:17 There's a (weak IMHO) argument that says sending southbound traffic for Robin Hood onto the M180/A18/A614 route reduces congestion at J3. In much the same way that signing A1 northbound traffic off at Blyth onto the A614 does.

The southbound exit slip at J3 isn't exactly long, with associated low queueing capacity before it backs up onto the mainline, so at morning peak it might be just about a valid argument. Maybe.
A better solution would be to fix J3 🤷🏻‍♂️
1️⃣ Traffic lights at the top of the sliproad ... that is the only entrance to the roundabout that doesn't have them.
2️⃣ Make it explicit that both lanes can be used to turn right towards Doncaster.
3️⃣ Add a filter lane for left-turning traffic to bypass the roundabout altogether.
4️⃣ Hopefully that will fix it, but if it still isn't sufficient then build an auxiliary lane leading up to the sliproad so that traffic can legally queue off the main carriageway.

(Point 3 may mean that at the start of the sliproad, it is one lane for left and one lane for right, and then either when the filter lane peels off both lanes are used for turning right or, if that is too close to the roundabout to give a cycle's worth of stacking space on the 2-lane-for-right section then widen the sliproad to 3 lanes).

And while you're at it, extend the merge for northbound traffic joining the M18, because that sliproad is ridiculously short for such a busy junction joining a busy 2-lane motorway.
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