Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

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Nathan_A_RF
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Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

The new B1538 link road from the M180/M18 roundabout opened a few weeks ago and there's 2021 street view here now! Taking a look at the signs, it makes me think there's some legal motorway stuff that didn't get changed.

First of all, the old road to the services was not under motorway regulations, and there were start and end [of motorway regulations] signs at the M180/M18 roundabout confirming this. The new dual carriageway from the new services roundabout and the M180/M18 roundabout is mostly on line with the old services access road, and these motorway start and end signs are in the same place as they were before (as is the roundabout junction sign). Hence, the dual carriageway does not appear to be under motorway regulations, and the new signs confirm this (kind of, sort of, definitely), as well as a map from the council. Now given this, is this an inescapable road to a motorway because the legislation was not changed from the previous slip road, or is the signage not updated or correct? Highways England have not seemed to have updated their signs yet at all to mention the B1538. But the new signs are from the council on the link road aren't they, so those should be up to date.

I'd love to know what the hell is going on here and who messed up what.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 00:09 The new B1538 link road from the M180/M18 roundabout opened a few weeks ago and there's 2021 street view here now! Taking a look at the signs, it makes me think there's some legal motorway stuff that didn't get changed.

First of all, the old road to the services was not under motorway regulations, and there were start and end [of motorway regulations] signs at the M180/M18 roundabout confirming this. The new dual carriageway from the new services roundabout and the M180/M18 roundabout is mostly on line with the old services access road, and these motorway start and end signs are in the same place as they were before (as is the roundabout junction sign). Hence, the dual carriageway does not appear to be under motorway regulations, and the new signs confirm this (kind of, sort of, definitely), as well as a map from the council. Now given this, is this an inescapable road to a motorway because the legislation was not changed from the previous slip road, or is the signage not updated or correct? Highways England have not seemed to have updated their signs yet at all to mention the B1538. But the new signs are from the council on the link road aren't they, so those should be up to date.

I'd love to know what the hell is going on here and who messed up what.
It's a legal screw up, quelle surprise.

https://goo.gl/maps/B3rPwU4rJVW6Ef21A - this is different to how it looked in December, when there was a start of motorway sign on the left.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

Well with that technically incorrect sign gone, I'm guessing the new "motorway traffic only" sign isn't legally enforceable, so this does mean then the road is technically "limbo" for non-motorway traffic? Can't go forward or reverse on this road without breaking the law as it's one-way.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by orudge »

Is there a reason they’ve put double yellows down (always looks odd on a dual carriageway to me) instead of making it a clearway? Or, of course, a motorway...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Conekicker »

Sweet Baby Jesus and all the orphans, does no one at Doncaster know what they are doing?

He asked rhetorically.

Signing/legal issues for the new link were raised at the design stage - and ignored by the looks of it.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59121 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Really?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Hdeng16 »

Surprised it's taken this long to get noticed on here. It's an absolute shambles.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Patrick Harper »

Looks like there are only two correct options - 'despecialise' the M18/M180 roundabout, or 'specialise' the former services link road, making it a western extension of M180.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by c2R »

I never fail to be disappointed by the ability of highways authorities to make a massive mess of this sort of thing. It really isn't difficult stuff...
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by orudge »

Patrick Harper wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 09:36 Looks like there are only two correct options - 'despecialise' the M18/M180 roundabout, or 'specialise' the former services link road, making it a western extension of M180.
Given what's happened to the A601(M) roundabout, I suspect the former may eventually happen.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by wrinkly »

Hdeng16 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 09:31 Surprised it's taken this long to get noticed on here. It's an absolute shambles.
I mentioned the potential problem in the first post of a short thread about the scheme in 2018:
wrinkly wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 19:40 Doncaster Council has had a long-standing aspiration to build a westward single carriageway link from the M18/M180 junction (where I imagine the roundabout would become AP, if anyone remembers to do the admin)
I haven't been near since it opened because of the pandemic.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 08:52 Sweet Baby Jesus and all the orphans, does no one at Doncaster know what they are doing?

He asked rhetorically.

Signing/legal issues for the new link were raised at the design stage - and ignored by the looks of it.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59121 ... 2?hl=en-GB
Really?
I'm surprised HE haven't made a right fuss, given the hassle they've given me over a proposed access for a minor development off a shockingly low standard NSL dual carriageway near somewhere that rhymes with Barbie.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by jackal »

The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:28
jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.
You'd need to ask the firm of consultants who "designed", (and I use that word in it's most incompetent form), the signing when the MSA was built. They were (of course) told their designs, "needed a careful review to ensure they complied with standards, as some aspects seemed deficient", when they tabled them, but there seems to be an amount of deafness associated with that part of the world. Meh.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:39
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:28
jackal wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:40 The blue ADS has the chopsticks visible behind it :facepalm:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.59092 ... 2?hl=en-GB
The blue ADS is of course from when it was just an MSA access. Which is why I can't understand the 200mm x-height as traffic would have been doing 15 mph around the old bend.
You'd need to ask the firm of consultants who "designed", (and I use that word in it's most incompetent form), the signing when the MSA was built. They were (of course) told their designs, "needed a careful review to ensure they complied with standards, as some aspects seemed deficient", when they tabled them, but there seems to be an amount of deafness associated with that part of the world. Meh.
Brings a tear of joy to your eye doesn't it?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

What it boils down to is that Highways England, once again, entirely fails to understand even the concept of Special Roads.

I usually say at this point "but it can't be that difficult, surely? I'm a layperson and I understand them", but clearly yes, it is too difficult a concept for actual people who are paid to do this to grasp.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Steven wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:02 What it boils down to is that Highways England, once again, entirely fails to understand even the concept of Special Roads.
Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Steven »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:07
Steven wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:02 What it boils down to is that Highways England, once again, entirely fails to understand even the concept of Special Roads.
Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
Yes, it looks like you're right. The former services access appears to have been detrunked as part of this work, so Doncaster MBC's bit is entirely all purpose, and HE's bit is entirely motorway, with the two responsibilities smashing into one another at the entry to the roundabout.

Still, the rant about people who should know about these things being clueless where it comes to Special Roads stands.
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Hdeng16 »

wrinkly wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:25
Hdeng16 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 09:31 Surprised it's taken this long to get noticed on here. It's an absolute shambles.
I mentioned the potential problem in the first post of a short thread about the scheme in 2018:
wrinkly wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 19:40 Doncaster Council has had a long-standing aspiration to build a westward single carriageway link from the M18/M180 junction (where I imagine the roundabout would become AP, if anyone remembers to do the admin)
I haven't been near since it opened because of the pandemic.
It wasn't a dig... more surprise but I see your post now. It's not rocket science that's the thing... when I found out about the plans I always wondered what they'd do, and it turns out.. nothing much.

Of course someone will say it doesn't matter.....
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Re: Inescapable B-road to a motorway?

Post by Conekicker »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:07
Steven wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 13:02 What it boils down to is that Highways England, once again, entirely fails to understand even the concept of Special Roads.
Not seeking to defend HE, is this their misunderstanding? Or it it Doncaster's with HE merely being negligent in their oversight?
Bottom line is that it's a local authority scheme, on land that doesn't belong to HE. If the local authority don't listen when told, for whatever reason(s), there's very little to nothing HE can do about it.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
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