British Roundabout "Etiquette"

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multiraider2
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by multiraider2 »

domcoop wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 00:05
Another St Helens one (although in a quiet residential area, I can not see how this possibly serves any purpose at all!). https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.47429 ... a=!3m1!1e3
There's one that's un-marked as for priority and that possibly trumps all others in "what is the purpose of that?" in Runfold, Surrey.

It's two dead-end lanes, a road leading to the old A31 and access to a mobile home park. Of course the two dead-end lanes, were once through routes that were cut-off by the new A31 bypass but nonetheless would have still just been country lanes.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Gareth Thomas »

This one in Folkestone is another example. I had wondered if it was unique.

In this case the reason is to allow traffic coming up the Road of Rememberance (a steep hill) to continue and not have to stop (or cause queues on the narrow hill). Until fairly recently (mid-2000s?) there were two give way lines on the roundabout, but now traffic from West Terrace gives way as with a "normal" roundabout.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by jedikiah »

Roundabouts without assigned priorities started to become an issue in the early 1960s for two main reasons: safety, and blockage, where the whole roundabout seized up.

There were those who wanted to get rid of them altogether on well-travelled routes to be replaced by lights or grade separation and others that wanted a general priority established for all crossroads, sort of a choice between American or Continental practice.

After experimentation at about 80 roundabouts which established safety and capacity benefits the default "give way to vehicles already in it" was set down for immediate effect in November 1966, without any signage or marking changes, which were to be done over time.

Roundabouts already with markings contrary to the new general rule quickly started to cause confusion particularly those on major routes. As an example all roundabouts on the Oxford bypasses were altered in 1967 to the default configuration as was the A580 East Lancs.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by the cheesecake man »

There's another give way on a roundabout example here in Rotherham for a very rare right turn.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Gareth »

I'm not sure I'd even perceive that as a roundabout. A gyratory, perhaps?
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Owain »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:46But PàD is still a known phenomenon in France (and I presume in Belgium), so the sign has some use beyond just scaring drivers into slowing down. Here it is one of those things that you get taught when learning to drive and then instantly forget, and that isn't helped by the authorities clearly using the wrong sign!
But how widespread is it in France? I've had never knowingly encountered it.

The only time I've ever got caught out by what I would assume was PàD was in Turin, ironically with roadtester as a passenger! A car emerged from a side road and we both did an emergency stop. He looked disapprovingly at us as he then proceeded to pull out. I was surprised, because I thought it had completely disappeared from Italian roads.

As for priority on roundabouts in the UK, this one causes much confusion, to the extent that I'm surprised that it is still there: Priority to the Left!
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Big L »

Gareth wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 09:08 I'm not sure I'd even perceive that as a roundabout. A gyratory, perhaps?
No, it's a R'BOUT.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by FosseWay »

Owain wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 09:43 But how widespread is [PàD] in France? I've had never knowingly encountered it.
It's been a while (10 years) since I drove in France but my memory is that basically all back roads in towns, plus all rural lanes that don't have road markings or signage, have PàD.

In that respect, it's much the same as Sweden. What makes PàD more prominent in France IME is the different layout of French towns compared to Swedish ones, where it's possible/legal to find your way through a suburb using back roads, so as a non-resident you're more likely to come across PàD-governed intersections. In Swedish towns, most of the roads where PàD applies are restricted in some way or are no through roads, so you're far less likely as a visitor to come across many of them.

The greater population density in rural France will also be a factor - in Sweden you're more likely to be able to drive for miles on PàD-governed goat tracks without seeing any other vehicles than in France, at least in the part of France (Nord-Pas de Calais) I have most driving experience in.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by exiled »

FosseWay wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:42
Owain wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 09:43 But how widespread is [PàD] in France? I've had never knowingly encountered it.
It's been a while (10 years) since I drove in France but my memory is that basically all back roads in towns, plus all rural lanes that don't have road markings or signage, have PàD.

In that respect, it's much the same as Sweden. What makes PàD more prominent in France IME is the different layout of French towns compared to Swedish ones, where it's possible/legal to find your way through a suburb using back roads, so as a non-resident you're more likely to come across PàD-governed intersections. In Swedish towns, most of the roads where PàD applies are restricted in some way or are no through roads, so you're far less likely as a visitor to come across many of them.

The greater population density in rural France will also be a factor - in Sweden you're more likely to be able to drive for miles on PàD-governed goat tracks without seeing any other vehicles than in France, at least in the part of France (Nord-Pas de Calais) I have most driving experience in.
It also appears to have had a new lease of life as a traffic calming measure. An example here from https://www.evasionfm.com/actualite-186 ... roite.html Brie-Comte-Robert (77), about moving to PàD across the commune, and a quick google shows this is increasingly common, that where there were Give Way or Stop signs in towns, PàD is back. Brie-Comte-Robert is also not in the middle of nowhere, it abuts the N104 Francilien and is in the Paris commuter belt and Disneyland Paris trip belt.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by exiled »

Article from 2019 about PaD returning, and also pointing out why it was being gotten rid of in France

https://www.caradisiac.com/pourquoi-la- ... 177492.htm

In the photo, there is a link to this thread 'Priority to the right across the whole of the town, except the roundabout'. North of the border however, discussion from the same time about removing PaD from Belgium's highway code.

https://www.sudinfo.be/id109907/article ... -plusieurs
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Bryn666 »

exiled wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:44
FosseWay wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:42
Owain wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 09:43 But how widespread is [PàD] in France? I've had never knowingly encountered it.
It's been a while (10 years) since I drove in France but my memory is that basically all back roads in towns, plus all rural lanes that don't have road markings or signage, have PàD.

In that respect, it's much the same as Sweden. What makes PàD more prominent in France IME is the different layout of French towns compared to Swedish ones, where it's possible/legal to find your way through a suburb using back roads, so as a non-resident you're more likely to come across PàD-governed intersections. In Swedish towns, most of the roads where PàD applies are restricted in some way or are no through roads, so you're far less likely as a visitor to come across many of them.

The greater population density in rural France will also be a factor - in Sweden you're more likely to be able to drive for miles on PàD-governed goat tracks without seeing any other vehicles than in France, at least in the part of France (Nord-Pas de Calais) I have most driving experience in.
It also appears to have had a new lease of life as a traffic calming measure. An example here from https://www.evasionfm.com/actualite-186 ... roite.html Brie-Comte-Robert (77), about moving to PàD across the commune, and a quick google shows this is increasingly common, that where there were Give Way or Stop signs in towns, PàD is back. Brie-Comte-Robert is also not in the middle of nowhere, it abuts the N104 Francilien and is in the Paris commuter belt and Disneyland Paris trip belt.
It's not that rare around the IdF - the biggie being the Boulevard Peripherique itself, where every entering slip road is a PaD. Good luck!
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 09:44
It's not that rare around the IdF - the biggie being the Boulevard Peripherique itself, where every entering slip road is a PaD. Good luck!
Fair point. Of course the Pérépherique has solid lines to prevent entering vehicles going straight into lane two, a 70 km/h limit, and the French state has spend billions on building autoroutes further out so those crossing France from North and East to South and West do not have to use the BP, in cases not even enter the Ile de France.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by FosseWay »

exiled wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 17:32 Article from 2019 about PaD returning, and also pointing out why it was being gotten rid of in France

https://www.caradisiac.com/pourquoi-la- ... 177492.htm

In the photo, there is a link to this thread 'Priority to the right across the whole of the town, except the roundabout'. North of the border however, discussion from the same time about removing PaD from Belgium's highway code.

https://www.sudinfo.be/id109907/article ... -plusieurs
Interesting... I tend to agree with the sceptical thrust of the first article. I can see the basic logic, at least in urban areas, of creating a situation where drivers going straight ahead are basically forced to slow down as if someone was going to emerge from every side road to the right, because they can't actually see whether there's someone approaching in most cases. But, as the article says, there is no guarantee that people on the straight line will actually do this, including people behind the lead vehicle in a convoy. No regulation on the roads should be an exercise in testing how many people pay attention to it, with "serves you right" as the response if they crash or incur a fine. The point of road safety measures is to protect road users, not to sort the observant sheep from the rebellious goats. If they cause accidents that would not otherwise have occurred, then they are a bad thing. If the authority fails to react to those accidents and abandon the change, then they are morally complicit in whatever deaths, injuries and material damage result.

The article covered quite comprehensively the dynamics involved between drivers on the straight line (e.g. failing to take account of emerging traffic that has priority) and those emerging (e.g. presuming priority and not looking and/or emerging too fast to stop if someone hasn't seen them). But it completely fails to address the needs of and risks to pedestrians. The person emerging from the side road with priority over crossing traffic from the left who just goes because they have priority will not only risk a collision with traffic from the left, but will also not consider the needs (and possible priority) of any pedestrians crossing the mouth of the turn. I don't know the rule in France, but here and in the UK, you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing at a corner where you are changing direction, unless you have a green light and they have a red man. Saying to someone turning right "you have priority" immediately endangers pedestrians in this context.

Given that, it wouldn't surprise me if fewer pedestrians are put at risk if you give the priority to traffic going straight on. Pedestrians don't have automatic priority over this traffic unless there is a crossing, and drivers who are actually turning right are no more or less likely to yield to crossing pedestrians under this scenario than during a right turn executed under PàD.

If the principal issue is getting people to slow down and interact with each other dynamically, including pedestrians, I'd rather see something along the lines of what I mentioned earlier in this thread, where *neither* arm of a junction has a presumed priority, and *no-one* approaching it can blithely say "I have priority" and go sailing out in front of heaven knows what or whom. Basically I'm arguing for a variant of the US four-way stop, but without the absolute duty to stop if it isn't necessary.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

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FosseWay wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:26
exiled wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 17:32 Article from 2019 about PaD returning, and also pointing out why it was being gotten rid of in France

https://www.caradisiac.com/pourquoi-la- ... 177492.htm

In the photo, there is a link to this thread 'Priority to the right across the whole of the town, except the roundabout'. North of the border however, discussion from the same time about removing PaD from Belgium's highway code.

https://www.sudinfo.be/id109907/article ... -plusieurs
Interesting... I tend to agree with the sceptical thrust of the first article. I can see the basic logic, at least in urban areas, of creating a situation where drivers going straight ahead are basically forced to slow down as if someone was going to emerge from every side road to the right, because they can't actually see whether there's someone approaching in most cases. But, as the article says, there is no guarantee that people on the straight line will actually do this, including people behind the lead vehicle in a convoy. No regulation on the roads should be an exercise in testing how many people pay attention to it, with "serves you right" as the response if they crash or incur a fine. The point of road safety measures is to protect road users, not to sort the observant sheep from the rebellious goats. If they cause accidents that would not otherwise have occurred, then they are a bad thing. If the authority fails to react to those accidents and abandon the change, then they are morally complicit in whatever deaths, injuries and material damage result.

The article covered quite comprehensively the dynamics involved between drivers on the straight line (e.g. failing to take account of emerging traffic that has priority) and those emerging (e.g. presuming priority and not looking and/or emerging too fast to stop if someone hasn't seen them). But it completely fails to address the needs of and risks to pedestrians. The person emerging from the side road with priority over crossing traffic from the left who just goes because they have priority will not only risk a collision with traffic from the left, but will also not consider the needs (and possible priority) of any pedestrians crossing the mouth of the turn. I don't know the rule in France, but here and in the UK, you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing at a corner where you are changing direction, unless you have a green light and they have a red man. Saying to someone turning right "you have priority" immediately endangers pedestrians in this context.

Given that, it wouldn't surprise me if fewer pedestrians are put at risk if you give the priority to traffic going straight on. Pedestrians don't have automatic priority over this traffic unless there is a crossing, and drivers who are actually turning right are no more or less likely to yield to crossing pedestrians under this scenario than during a right turn executed under PàD.

If the principal issue is getting people to slow down and interact with each other dynamically, including pedestrians, I'd rather see something along the lines of what I mentioned earlier in this thread, where *neither* arm of a junction has a presumed priority, and *no-one* approaching it can blithely say "I have priority" and go sailing out in front of heaven knows what or whom. Basically I'm arguing for a variant of the US four-way stop, but without the absolute duty to stop if it isn't necessary.
The rule for pedestrians at junctions appears similar to here, a lot of pedestrian crossings are at junctions, and pedestrians have absolute priority on them (6 points and a 135€ fine). But I tend to lean into the SudInfo article, that PàD causes more accidents. The RTBF news article embedded gave some of the figures. A lot of the French articles also have the implication that the decision is various town halls trying to save money as much as anything, which gives the impression of saving a franc to spend a euro.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

Post by Bryn666 »

There's probably something in that - with PaD being default that means every single junction requires a Stop or Cedez la Passage sign. Even without lighting, that's a fair chunk of spend and clutter.

In the UK, despite the best efforts of developers and other eejits, upright give way signs are not required at every junction.
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Re: British Roundabout "Etiquette"

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Bryn666 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 13:16 There's probably something in that - with PaD being default that means every single junction requires a Stop or Cedez la Passage sign. Even without lighting, that's a fair chunk of spend and clutter.

In the UK, despite the best efforts of developers and other eejits, upright give way signs are not required at every junction.
Especially France, which appears to have a successful captive breeding plan for junction signage.
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