British Roundabout "Etiquette"

[A3-Andrew]

I had a discussion on Facebook with someone about roundabouts in the UK and whether or not there was in their beginning a different rule about entering them? I was convinced that I had discovered a couple of years ago that until the mid-Sixties traffic entering a "Traffic Circle" as it appears to have been called had priority. I can not find an actual statement about this anywhere but it is clear that giving way to traffic on a roundabout became the norm in the mid-Sixties. Can anyone clarify this for me?

[Debaser]

Does this article on an odd little website help?

https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/round ... ng-streets

Also this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabou ... oundabouts

[Steven]

I had a discussion on Facebook with someone about roundabouts in the UK and whether or not there was in their beginning a different rule about entering them? I was convinced that I had discovered a couple of years ago that until the mid-Sixties traffic entering a "Traffic Circle" as it appears to have been called had priority. I can not find an actual statement about this anywhere but it is clear that giving way to traffic on a roundabout became the norm in the mid-Sixties. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Are you sure that this isn't a confusion about France, which originally had that rule - and indeed roundabouts in France now include signage like "vous n'avez pas la priorité" and "cédéz le passage" on the entries - though there doesn't seem to be consistency on the wording that's used!

[WHBM]

The priority at roundabouts was indeed introduced in the late 1960s, I can just about remember it coming in. Until then there was no rule (hence the old London cabbie expression "comply roundabout", with no reference to what the priority might be). It coincided with the placing of Give Way lines. The earliest ones were supplemented by Give Way signs, but these soon disappeared. It took several years to introduce the markings. Once established, mini-roundabouts, with a small or non-existent weaving area, came along.

It was an "etiquette" to give way on entry, there was nothing more in the Highway Code I recall. There were of course some who barrelled on and then barrelled past the other entry points as well; get two of these approaching from different directions and they would indeed just collide. About this time "uncontrolled cross roads", a similar arrangement, also began to disappear - for those who didn't know them, these, particularly back streets in towns, had no markings or indication of priority either. Old driving tests always took you through a couple and expected appropriate caution to be shown.

[exiled]

I had a discussion on Facebook with someone about roundabouts in the UK and whether or not there was in their beginning a different rule about entering them? I was convinced that I had discovered a couple of years ago that until the mid-Sixties traffic entering a "Traffic Circle" as it appears to have been called had priority. I can not find an actual statement about this anywhere but it is clear that giving way to traffic on a roundabout became the norm in the mid-Sixties. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Are you sure that this isn't a confusion about France, which originally had that rule - and indeed roundabouts in France now include signage like "vous n'avez pas la priorité" and "cédéz le passage" on the entries - though there doesn't seem to be consistency on the wording that's used!

Interesting article from BFM.TV (in French) that the first modern roundabouts in France (rondspoints à l'anglaise) were test introduced in 1976 with the rule in the Code de la Route in 1983 that the 'round about' sign specified traffic on it has priority.
https://www.bfmtv.com/auto/pourquoi-y-a ... pomobiles.. It appears the name 'rond points à l'anglaise' is because of how roundabouts were used in the sixties and seventies in places like Milton Keynes here.

The 'vous n'avez pas la priorité' was on the roundabout sign, and has not been needed for a good few years now. If the road has priority at that point you then get the crossed out diamond, then at the entrance the standard give way with the 'cédez la passage'

In the absence of these signs, 'priorité à droit' still applies, though often with the saltire cross road sign instead of indication it is a giratory.

[FosseWay]

About this time "uncontrolled cross roads", a similar arrangement, also began to disappear - for those who didn't know them, these, particularly back streets in towns, had no markings or indication of priority either. Old driving tests always took you through a couple and expected appropriate caution to be shown.

These still exist, of course, on country lanes with neither markings nor signage, both with crossroads and forks where there is no convention governing priority. (At T-junctions, the convention is pretty well established that traffic going straight on has priority over traffic emerging from or turning into the "stem" of the T, though I wouldn't advise presuming that everyone else takes that view if you're barrelling towards one.)

On roundabouts (I mean normal ones to which the current rule of giving way to traffic already circulating applies), there is also a clear difference in etiquette between countries. If you are turning left or right at an upcoming roundabout, in the UK you are taught to signal appropriately on the approach, and then (if turning right) switch to signalling left as you pass the exit before the one you intend to take. If going straight on, you don't signal on approach, and signal left as you pass the exit before yours. In Germany, on the other hand, it is apparently not the done thing to signal on approach; you simply signal right as you pass the exit before yours.

I'm not sure what the standard behaviour in Sweden is, i.e. what you get taught when learning to drive, as the behaviour I see is fairly evenly divided between those who take the UK approach, those who take the German approach, and those who don't bother signalling at all at any point.

[A3-Andrew]

Thank you. I had found the Wikipedia article but I could not understand what the rule was before the "Give Way" rule came in. I was obviously not using the appropriate search terms to find the roads.org.uk article so thank you for pointing that out, too.

[FosseWay]

In the absence of these signs, 'priorité à droite' still applies, though often with the saltire cross road sign instead of indication it is a giratory.

Of course, it helps if the signage is correct. The sign for an upcoming junction governed by priorité à droite is this one (which I presume is what you meant):

varning för vägkorsning.png (10.39 KiB) Viewed 1487 times

But only the other day I drove past one of these, only for the side road joining from the right, to which the sign referred, to have a STOP sign and solid line. So which is it - PàD or my priority?

Seriously, I know Bryn, conekicker and other highways professionals on here bemoan all the instances of non-standard signage they come across on the UK network, but you ain't seen nothing if you've not experienced the chaos that is Swedish signage!

[Steven]

Thank you. I had found the Wikipedia article but I could not understand what the rule was before the "Give Way" rule came in. I was obviously not using the appropriate search terms to find the roads.org.uk article so thank you for pointing that out, too.

There's also an article on this very website that everyone seems to have missed.

Roundabout

[exiled]

But only the other day I drove past one of these, only for the side road joining from the right, to which the sign referred, to have a STOP sign and solid line. So which is it - PàD or my priority?

Seriously, I know Bryn, conekicker and other highways professionals on here bemoan all the instances of non-standard signage they come across on the UK network, but you ain't seen nothing if you've not experienced the chaos that is Swedish signage!

That is the bunny. Street view shows that still being used a lot in France and Belgium for example as 'traffic calming'.

[FosseWay]

But PàD is still a known phenomenon in France (and I presume in Belgium), so the sign has some use beyond just scaring drivers into slowing down. Here it is one of those things that you get taught when learning to drive and then instantly forget, and that isn't helped by the authorities clearly using the wrong sign!

[WHBM]

It appears the name 'rond points à l'anglaise' is because of how roundabouts were used in the sixties and seventies in places like Milton Keynes here.

The expression was used because French roundabouts had previously been 'priorite a droit', like everywhere else, so joining traffic had the priority. Giving way to those already on the roundabout was a reversal of this.

Notably the grand-daddy roundabout of them all, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, is seen as too large to be just roundabout rules, and priority to the right still seems the style in the morass there.

[exiled]

But PàD is still a known phenomenon in France (and I presume in Belgium), so the sign has some use beyond just scaring drivers into slowing down. Here it is one of those things that you get taught when learning to drive and then instantly forget, and that isn't helped by the authorities clearly using the wrong sign!

Perhaps a legacy of when Sweden drove on the left? Iceland appears to be also lacking in much PàD

[FosseWay]

But PàD is still a known phenomenon in France (and I presume in Belgium), so the sign has some use beyond just scaring drivers into slowing down. Here it is one of those things that you get taught when learning to drive and then instantly forget, and that isn't helped by the authorities clearly using the wrong sign!

Perhaps a legacy of when Sweden drove on the left? Iceland appears to be also lacking in much PàD

No, because Sweden had priorité à gauche before 1967.

The reasons for the practical decline of PàD in Sweden are several, I think.

1. In terms of vehicle movements per day, most junctions are exceptions to PàD of one sort or another, whether light-controlled or with the yellow diamond on the priority road. In particular, there are rules about priority on roads with a higher-than-NSL (70) limit, such that basically any road with 80+ or with a 70 limit that's been applied as a result of risk assessment rather than just having default NSL will always be governed by the yellow diamond. In Norway you get more PàD and on roads with higher limits.

2. In urban areas, there is very widespread use of both traffic lights and roundabouts, which reduce the number of high-use PàD junctions significantly.

3. In urban residential areas, the standard set-up is to prevent through traffic for cars and larger vehicles. This means that the total vehicle flow in these areas is relatively low compared to many similar roads in the UK. Although PàD applies fairly consistently on such roads, the likelihood of you actually needing to interact with another driver is pretty low, and if it happens, it is likely to be resolved by ad hoc communication between drivers.

4. Similarly, on country lanes, traffic levels are low and the same applies.

I actually think that it should be formally abandoned here in favour of "proceed with caution", i.e. without giving any movement explicit priority. This means that everyone has to pay attention, and you eliminate the issue you get at chicanes where a problem caused by someone ignoring the "oncoming traffic has priority" sign is exacerbated by the person whose priority has been infringed becoming aggressive and increasing both risk and obstruction.

[PhilC]

To quote from the 1959 copy of the Highway Code,

"Rule 46. There are no rights of way in general at roundabouts."

I can remember a 5 way roundabout near where I lived, and it was the established practice that two of the arms constituted the major road. Traffic drove straight through the junction on the "major" road, and all other traffic was expected to give way, whether entering or circulating. I can remember the give way to the right rule being introduced, but initially it was by no means universally observed.

Another quotation from the 1959 Highway Code,

"Rule 37. When approaching a junction with a major road slow down gradually and if in doubt give way to traffic on the major road."

As mentioned up thread, there used to be many unmarked crossroads, with no indication which is the major road. Sometimes local traffic would decide which was the more important road, but nothing official. I might be making this up, but years ago I seem to remember reading that the relative widths of the roads 100 yards (feet?) before the junction determined which was the major road.

[WHBM]

I actually think that it should be formally abandoned here in favour of "proceed with caution", i.e. without giving any movement explicit priority. This means that everyone has to pay attention, and you eliminate the issue you get at chicanes where a problem caused by someone ignoring the "oncoming traffic has priority" sign is exacerbated by the person whose priority has been infringed becoming aggressive and increasing both risk and obstruction.

A proportion of drivers are not traffic engineering-knowledgeable like us lot and just not ready for "everyone has to pay attention", for them it's priority or not. This is part of the failure of Shared Space, where there is no explicit priority but you see some inappropriate behaviour - the last time I was at the one outside Sloane Square Underground https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4922526 ... 384!8i8192 someone blasted through with the horn.

[wrinkly]

Both before and after the introduction of the present roundabout priority rule, some roundabouts had signs and/or markings giving priority to a particular route, usually reinforcing the fact that that route had a straight run. My own private terminology for these is "tangent-about". Before the construction of the M56 there was one of these at the A56/A556 junction; the straight north-to-south run, for traffic from the Altrincham direction to the Northwich direction, had top priority; for movements not encountering this route it was more like an ordinary roundabout.

[Bryn666]

I had a discussion on Facebook with someone about roundabouts in the UK and whether or not there was in their beginning a different rule about entering them? I was convinced that I had discovered a couple of years ago that until the mid-Sixties traffic entering a "Traffic Circle" as it appears to have been called had priority. I can not find an actual statement about this anywhere but it is clear that giving way to traffic on a roundabout became the norm in the mid-Sixties. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Are you sure that this isn't a confusion about France, which originally had that rule - and indeed roundabouts in France now include signage like "vous n'avez pas la priorité" and "cédéz le passage" on the entries - though there doesn't seem to be consistency on the wording that's used!

France now has the highest number of roundabouts in the world, using 'conventional' priority, so the "vous n'avez pas la priorité" text has now been discontinued (in 2002 apparently!). "Cédez la passage" remains underneath give way signs, because it's impossible to neatly fit into an inverted triangle (unlike GIVE WAY).

[Bryn666]

In the absence of these signs, 'priorité à droite' still applies, though often with the saltire cross road sign instead of indication it is a giratory.

Of course, it helps if the signage is correct. The sign for an upcoming junction governed by priorité à droite is this one (which I presume is what you meant):

varning för vägkorsning.png

But only the other day I drove past one of these, only for the side road joining from the right, to which the sign referred, to have a STOP sign and solid line. So which is it - PàD or my priority?

Seriously, I know Bryn, conekicker and other highways professionals on here bemoan all the instances of non-standard signage they come across on the UK network, but you ain't seen nothing if you've not experienced the chaos that is Swedish signage!

That would drive me mad. In France they have near religious zealot levels of correct application of junction signs to the extent that every side road is signed with a picket fence - annoyingly, the French sign ALWAYS shows a crossroads even if it's just a side road on one side, and the X is usually adorned with DANGER or VOUS N'AVEZ PAS LA PRIORITÉ these days.

[Ruperts Trooper]

I actually think that it should be formally abandoned here in favour of "proceed with caution", i.e. without giving any movement explicit priority. This means that everyone has to pay attention, and you eliminate the issue you get at chicanes where a problem caused by someone ignoring the "oncoming traffic has priority" sign is exacerbated by the person whose priority has been infringed becoming aggressive and increasing both risk and obstruction.

A proportion of drivers are not traffic engineering-knowledgeable like us lot and just not ready for "everyone has to pay attention", for them it's priority or not. This is part of the failure of Shared Space, where there is no explicit priority but you see some inappropriate behaviour - the last time I was at the one outside Sloane Square Underground https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4922526 ... 384!8i8192 someone blasted through with the horn.

It's been a long time now since I drove in Central London but "everyone has to pay attention because the Highway Code doesn't apply" seemed to be normal then.