Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

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thatapanydude
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Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by thatapanydude »

Here are a couple of articles (Telegraph) and (BBC) that I read this morning which are rather interesting on some changes looking to implemented by Google Maps first in the US then the UK.

I wonder if new roads will be used more with the aim of choosing the most eco route with less mileage. So could we see more of traffic being directed through let's say Chelmsford rather than the long bypass or through London rather than the N.Circular.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by c2R »

In theory, the idea makes a lot of sense if you look at, say, the USA and Canada. In practice in the UK, though, it could mean sending drivers via Tarporley rather than M6/M56, thus sending traffic down less suitable and less safe roads, which is likely to increase accidents.

Of course, there should be better ways of users travelling between places like Stoke and Chester than having to do the two wrong sides of the triangle, but we'd need better investment in Main Road route corridors that instead we've detrunked in that case....
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by jervi »

In some places it may catch on, especially where congestion may be unpredictable and where there is multiple routes that can carry a large amount of traffic in the same direction. So basically every town/city running on a grid system that has loads of routes designated for heavy traffic. So basically everywhere except Europe.
I'd imagine it wouldn't make too much difference in the UK or elsewhere in Europe since we don't have a large amount of routes in cities that are suitable for heavy traffic, and all those routes are equally bad as each other for that purpose.

In rural areas I'd imagine it wouldn't make too much difference either, and if it starts routing large amounts of traffic onto unsuitable country lanes it WILL be a safety issue, and will result in countless deaths of motorists, walkers, cyclists & horse riders. It will also makes these roads unattractive for walkers, cyclists and horse riders, ultimately discouraging sustainable active travel, and also ruining the environment of these back country roads making them unpleasant and dangerous.

Currently if there is a large delay on a road Google will suggest an alterative as appropriate, this is good however doing it on an even more micro level I'd say is bad.

Also taking drivers on routes that they are unfamiliar with can be dangerous, especially if Google has suggested other people down the same route too potentially making a hostile environment for people trying to skim seconds off their journeys.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

thatapanydude wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 09:53 Here are a couple of articles (Telegraph) and (BBC) that I read this morning which are rather interesting on some changes looking to implemented by Google Maps first in the US then the UK.

I wonder if new roads will be used more with the aim of choosing the most eco route with less mileage. So could we see more of traffic being directed through let's say Chelmsford rather than the long bypass or through London rather than the N.Circular.
It's not a new concept - my car satnav, itself an older type dating back to the noughties*, has three options for route planning - Fastest, Shortest and Economical - I leave it set to Economical as I've found that gives the best towing routes with fewest minor roads and certainly uses bypasses where available. I don't know the algorithm detail but it rightly calculates that a longer free flow route is more economical than a shorter congested route.

* it's an old design of unit but the firmware, software and maps have been updated several times.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by Fenlander »

You have to chuck a few vehicle specific details into the pot for the eco route at a guess? I’m guessing it aims for an engine sweet spot for the longest possible time, I know my previous diesel would sit for hours barely using any at one speed but would rapidly develop a thirst much higher, traffic usually dictated that the reasonable speed was all but impossible to maintain on a long run unless the roads were very quiet.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by green light »

thatapanydude wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 09:53 Here are a couple of articles (Telegraph) and (BBC) that I read this morning which are rather interesting on some changes looking to implemented by Google Maps first in the US then the UK.

I wonder if new roads will be used more with the aim of choosing the most eco route with less mileage. So could we see more of traffic being directed through let's say Chelmsford rather than the long bypass or through London rather than the N.Circular.
Sounds like they are trying to emulate the Citymapper app.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by DB617 »

This further reinforces the need for LTNs and congestion/emissions charge zones (same difference, different hat really) in areas where Councils and locals don't want through traffic.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by multiraider2 »

There are several old Google Maps threads. I'll put this here. I did and do have an issue with their revision to the colouration from some years ago and making all roads except motorways and primary routes white is a nonsense. I only use their mapping for its street view function and an interest in what it does suggest as a route between places.

The latter function has now caused a furore as if you select "Ben Nevis" under the car directions, it sends you to the nearest car park and then adds a dotted line to the peak. Mountaineering Scotland and others have jumped all over this and said the line suggested by Google is not a proper path at all and potentially extremely dangerous. Well yes, but this function has been around for quite a time and if you do select somewhere on driving that is not on the road network, it always gets you as near as it can on the road and then just uses this dashed line connection to the feature. If you use Google Map driving route finder as a basis for undertaking a walk up a mountain, then this puts you, in my opinion, in the same category as those that try to scale mountains in unsuitable clothing and footwear and have to be rescued or use electronic maps from their phones and then have them not work when there is no signal. i.e. in the Darwin Award category. I personally have no problem with it but no doubt they will come under pressure to change.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

multiraider2 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:24 There are several old Google Maps threads. I'll put this here. I did and do have an issue with their revision to the colouration from some years ago and making all roads except motorways and primary routes white is a nonsense. I only use their mapping for its street view function and an interest in what it does suggest as a route between places.

The latter function has now caused a furore as if you select "Ben Nevis" under the car directions, it sends you to the nearest car park and then adds a dotted line to the peak. Mountaineering Scotland and others have jumped all over this and said the line suggested by Google is not a proper path at all and potentially extremely dangerous. Well yes, but this function has been around for quite a time and if you do select somewhere on driving that is not on the road network, it always gets you as near as it can on the road and then just uses this dashed line connection to the feature. If you use Google Map driving route finder as a basis for undertaking a walk up a mountain, then this puts you, in my opinion, in the same category as those that try to scale mountains in unsuitable clothing and footwear and have to be rescued or use electronic maps from their phones and then have them not work when there is no signal. i.e. in the Darwin Award category. I personally have no problem with it but no doubt they will come under pressure to change.
There may be many who want to walk up Ben Nevis who take Google maps as gospel - it's clearly dangerous to do so there however innocuous it is elsewhere. From a practical point of view, why doesn't Google Maps identify the appropriate car park lower down the glen to get the Ben Nevis ?
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by KeithW »

multiraider2 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:24 There are several old Google Maps threads. I'll put this here. I did and do have an issue with their revision to the colouration from some years ago and making all roads except motorways and primary routes white is a nonsense. I only use their mapping for its street view function and an interest in what it does suggest as a route between places.

The latter function has now caused a furore as if you select "Ben Nevis" under the car directions, it sends you to the nearest car park and then adds a dotted line to the peak. Mountaineering Scotland and others have jumped all over this and said the line suggested by Google is not a proper path at all and potentially extremely dangerous. Well yes, but this function has been around for quite a time and if you do select somewhere on driving that is not on the road network, it always gets you as near as it can on the road and then just uses this dashed line connection to the feature. If you use Google Map driving route finder as a basis for undertaking a walk up a mountain, then this puts you, in my opinion, in the same category as those that try to scale mountains in unsuitable clothing and footwear and have to be rescued or use electronic maps from their phones and then have them not work when there is no signal. i.e. in the Darwin Award category. I personally have no problem with it but no doubt they will come under pressure to change.
I agree anyone who decides to climb a mountain on the basis of Google Maps is in line for a Darwin Award. That said this is a storm in a teacup. If as I just did you select a start point and search for Ben Nevis as the destination it actually gives several options. If you simply select Ben Nevis Fort William it actually takes you to the visitor centre car park where any would be climber can be given advice. Better yet click on the visitor centre on the map and it takes you to this website.
https://www.highlifehighland.com/bennevis/

This seems entirely appropriate and not at all controversial.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by KeithW »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:43 There may be many who want to walk up Ben Nevis who take Google maps as gospel - it's clearly dangerous to do so there however innocuous it is elsewhere. From a practical point of view, why doesn't Google Maps identify the appropriate car park lower down the glen to get the Ben Nevis ?
It does exactly that.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ben ... authuser=0

Oh and as a matter of interest a google camera was backpacked up the trail. Here is a link. So you can do a nice virtual walk up the mountain.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.80536 ... authuser=0
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by RJDG14 »

I believe Google Maps added a feature last year during the first lockdown which labelled certain businesses as "temporarily closed", which could have detered people from travelling to see if they were open. It's possible that this feature existed previously for if a place was undergoing a refurbishment but was rarely seen.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by FosseWay »

multiraider2 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:24 There are several old Google Maps threads. I'll put this here. I did and do have an issue with their revision to the colouration from some years ago and making all roads except motorways and primary routes white is a nonsense. I only use their mapping for its street view function and an interest in what it does suggest as a route between places.
I find Google Maps virtually unusable because unless you really scroll in, you can barely discern what is road, what isn't, and what the bits that aren't road actually are (woodland, built-up, whatever). I always have it set to satellite view so I can tell t'other from which.

For anywhere in the UK and Ireland, I can recommend a different source of maps :wink:

For round me, I tend to use one of the various manifestations of the Lantmäteriet base map, generally this one, which shows all the registered ancient monuments as well.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

KeithW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:11
multiraider2 wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 09:24 There are several old Google Maps threads. I'll put this here. I did and do have an issue with their revision to the colouration from some years ago and making all roads except motorways and primary routes white is a nonsense. I only use their mapping for its street view function and an interest in what it does suggest as a route between places.

The latter function has now caused a furore as if you select "Ben Nevis" under the car directions, it sends you to the nearest car park and then adds a dotted line to the peak. Mountaineering Scotland and others have jumped all over this and said the line suggested by Google is not a proper path at all and potentially extremely dangerous. Well yes, but this function has been around for quite a time and if you do select somewhere on driving that is not on the road network, it always gets you as near as it can on the road and then just uses this dashed line connection to the feature. If you use Google Map driving route finder as a basis for undertaking a walk up a mountain, then this puts you, in my opinion, in the same category as those that try to scale mountains in unsuitable clothing and footwear and have to be rescued or use electronic maps from their phones and then have them not work when there is no signal. i.e. in the Darwin Award category. I personally have no problem with it but no doubt they will come under pressure to change.
I agree anyone who decides to climb a mountain on the basis of Google Maps is in line for a Darwin Award. That said this is a storm in a teacup. If as I just did you select a start point and search for Ben Nevis as the destination it actually gives several options. If you simply select Ben Nevis Fort William it actually takes you to the visitor centre car park where any would be climber can be given advice. Better yet click on the visitor centre on the map and it takes you to this website.
https://www.highlifehighland.com/bennevis/

This seems entirely appropriate and not at all controversial.
Google Maps made the change recently, to use the Visitor Centre rather than Glen Nevis car park BECAUSE of the complaints.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by Vierwielen »

At this point, my car's SatNav suggests going straight on when going to Reading. The map suggests that the difference between the two routes is about 200 metres, but the real difference is that by going straight on, one has to do a right turn across the A33 that often has fast-moving traffic, whereas by taking the right turn as per the road sign, one will eventually join the A33 at a roundabout.

One way around the problem would be for the map-makers to introduce an optional "artificial delay" parameter on each road section. In most cases the "artificial delay" value would be set to zero, but on certain sections of road, such as this one, it could be set to a positive value - possibly one minute in this case. The actual value of the artificial delay would be set by the road authority in conjunction with the map-makers.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by skiddaw05 »

Vierwielen wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 17:19 One way around the problem would be for the map-makers to introduce an optional "artificial delay" parameter on each road section. In most cases the "artificial delay" value would be set to zero, but on certain sections of road, such as this one, it could be set to a positive value - possibly one minute in this case. The actual value of the artificial delay would be set by the road authority in conjunction with the map-makers.
It could even (rightly or wrongly) be used by highways authorities to discourage traffic from certain routes by exaggerating the artificial delay - put 10 minutes on it and that would put a lot of people off!
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by crb11 »

Vierwielen wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 17:19 One way around the problem would be for the map-makers to introduce an optional "artificial delay" parameter on each road section. In most cases the "artificial delay" value would be set to zero, but on certain sections of road, such as this one, it could be set to a positive value - possibly one minute in this case. The actual value of the artificial delay would be set by the road authority in conjunction with the map-makers.
Google etc I think will already have the information available to calculate this - if they can track vehicles well enough to know that at 3pm on a weekday, it takes vehicles 5 minutes to drive the 3 miles on the B1001 from Anyvillage to the A16 junction, and 4 minutes to then drive another 3 miles on the A16 to Sometown, they ought to also know that if a vehicle takes 10 minutes to go from Anyvillage to Sometown by this route, then you need to allow a minute to get out onto the A16 at this junction (in this direction). Obviously it adds to the amount of computation time to take this into account, so I don't know whether they do - your example suggests possibly not.

The approach you suggest has been used in the Cyclestreets cycle route planner up to a point, if I remember correctly. They have a fairly wide selection of road types, and have metrics for different types, so, for instance, turning right from a minor road onto a major one where there is no crossing point, is given a certain penalty. I think they could tune things for particular junctions manually, but don't know if this ever happened.
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

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Vierwielen wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 17:19 At this point, my car's SatNav suggests going straight on when going to Reading. The map suggests that the difference between the two routes is about 200 metres, but the real difference is that by going straight on, one has to do a right turn across the A33 that often has fast-moving traffic, whereas by taking the right turn as per the road sign, one will eventually join the A33 at a roundabout.
I did the straight ahead, once - I was curious as to why the spur was unclassified... and took forever to turn right.

In fact, I'd suggest that should be a no right turn - adequate alternate routes exist, by the official route!
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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

Post by M4Simon »

During lockdown I drove quite a lot (for work) in north London, including a call at an address in Maida Vale. Over the course of a few weeks, where I did the same journey at about the same time on the same day of the week, the sat-nav sent me by various routes from Maida Vale back towards the A41. It was rarely the route shown here, (which should hopefully be for next Tuesday afternoon leaving at 4pm), more frequerntly it would send me up the A5, then right into Belsize Road and then via Fairfax Road. Sometimes I would stay on Belsize Road beyond the roundabout with Fairfax Road, and then cut across to Fairfax Road via Harben Road. Other times it would take me via Goldhurst Road and round the back of Waitrose. Other routes were also suggested on different occasions.

It was clear to me that a lot of people were using Google Maps as a satnav because I was rarely the only one taking a particular route. I'm not sure quite how 'real time' the Google Maps data is, but last weekend I was sitting in a queue on the M1 and it varied the expected delay time while i was queuing, so I think it is reasonably close to real time information.

I found myself having to explain to the others in the car that Google Maps will give you the best route at the time you leave, and will vary it if it finds a quicker route from the point you have reached, but, when you are on a three hour journey with two good but diverse route options, it cannot possibly know before you depart about a collision on your route that only happened one hour into your journey and is now causing delay.

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Re: Changes to Google Maps which could affect road usage?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 07:46
Vierwielen wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 17:19 At this point, my car's SatNav suggests going straight on when going to Reading. The map suggests that the difference between the two routes is about 200 metres, but the real difference is that by going straight on, one has to do a right turn across the A33 that often has fast-moving traffic, whereas by taking the right turn as per the road sign, one will eventually join the A33 at a roundabout.
I did the straight ahead, once - I was curious as to why the spur was unclassified... and took forever to turn right.

In fact, I'd suggest that should be a no right turn - adequate alternate routes exist, by the official route!
It is now a No Right Turn at the A33 junction.
https://goo.gl/maps/aXJtgVAZ7SJqWS5X9
https://goo.gl/maps/5GCHgPXK8EE5tZ839
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