If you travel *due* north, certainly. Routes towards Teesside travel towards a more northerly latitude, A174 more quickly than A171.jgharston wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 14:12On a similar theme, I am continually correcting people who refer to travelling "north" from Whitby if they are referring to a land route. If you travel north from Whitby you will get wet.orudge wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:11 Not a motorway, but I always think of the A96 as westbound/eastbound rather than northbound/southbound, which I know a number of other folk use. While the road as a whole does run from Aberdeen north to Inverness, it reaches a northernmost point around Elgin then runs southbound to Inverness, whereas the road remains pretty consistently westbound or eastbound.
Motorway Directions
Moderator: Site Management Team
- Chris Bertram
- Member
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: Motorway Directions
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Re: Motorway Directions
I remember getting bogged down on a "20 questions where am I quiz" on SABRE many years ago because of the difference between "Am I north of London?" and "Am I further north than London?" Holyhead (for example) only qualifies as yes to one of those questions.jgharston wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 14:12On a similar theme, I am continually correcting people who refer to travelling "north" from Whitby if they are referring to a land route. If you travel north from Whitby you will get wet.orudge wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:11 Not a motorway, but I always think of the A96 as westbound/eastbound rather than northbound/southbound, which I know a number of other folk use. While the road as a whole does run from Aberdeen north to Inverness, it reaches a northernmost point around Elgin then runs southbound to Inverness, whereas the road remains pretty consistently westbound or eastbound.
Simon
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Please contact me if you want to know more
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Please contact me if you want to know more
- ellandback
- Member
- Posts: 1367
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 08:48
- Location: Elland, West Yorkshire
Re: Motorway Directions
I agree, for precisely the reasons you state. The road as a whole is predominantly E/W; referring to it as N/S only makes sense between Aberdeen and Elgin, and even then not to any greater extent than E/W also makes sense for that stretch.orudge wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:11 Not a motorway, but I always think of the A96 as westbound/eastbound rather than northbound/southbound, which I know a number of other folk use. While the road as a whole does run from Aberdeen north to Inverness, it reaches a northernmost point around Elgin then runs southbound to Inverness, whereas the road remains pretty consistently westbound or eastbound.
Re: Motorway Directions
The US directions are based on the local geometry of the road. So US 101 goes along the west coast and then around the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. If you travel all the way along it from LA, it's mostly signed "North" but towards the end you will pass signs that say "East" and eventually "South".Was92now625 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 13:57Yes. There is the actual direction and the "official direction" the road is "deemed" to run.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:50Causes problems when a road runs diagonally though - for example I-44.Was92now625 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:05 Of course, the "decision" is made more "official" in e.g. USA. The number (in certain categories of road) is odd or even depending on which direction the road is deemed to run.
Re: Motorway Directions
The best ones are examples like the Bayshore Freeway north of Oakland, which is north-south but signposted as East I-80 and West I-580 due to the way the roads multiplex.bart wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 19:38The US directions are based on the local geometry of the road. So US 101 goes along the west coast and then around the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. If you travel all the way along it from LA, it's mostly signed "North" but towards the end you will pass signs that say "East" and eventually "South".Was92now625 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 13:57Yes. There is the actual direction and the "official direction" the road is "deemed" to run.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
-
- Member
- Posts: 617
- Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 15:46
Re: Motorway Directions
In some cases it's up to London, but by a line that no longer exists. Or by a circuitous route that's long since been bypassed by a more direct line. Then there are stations like Edinburgh and Exeter St Davids where both ways go to London.ais523 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 20:29This has its own issues: if you look at the mileposts for a railway line which doesn't go to London, it can be very hard to guess which direction is up and which direction is down! (I think at least one that I used to use regularly reversed milepost direction at some point.)Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 18:51Nope. Up and Down, as per the railways, with Up meaning towards London, in England and Wales, anyway.
Using a system like that on the roads would be even worse; there are more roads than railways, and they're more likely to be driven on by unfamiliar drivers.
But the motorways already have this system - "down" is "A", going away from the datum (London, or some other "beginning" of the road) and "up" is "B", going towards the datum.
Of course on the railways, (most of the time) when you're going up the mileage is going down and vice versa. And then there's mountain railways, where the usual convention would have "down" going up the mountain and "up" coming down it...
Re: Motorway Directions
That's a converse example to US 101 then, as the local geometry is north-south, so maybe there's no standard. I see from GSV that an on-ramp to I-25 near Santa Fe, NM is signposted "North I-25" (which is the local direction) but, when you join the freeway the route confirmation signs say "South I-25" (which is the overall direction).Bryn666 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 20:59The best ones are examples like the Bayshore Freeway north of Oakland, which is north-south but signposted as East I-80 and West I-580 due to the way the roads multiplex.bart wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 19:38The US directions are based on the local geometry of the road. So US 101 goes along the west coast and then around the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. If you travel all the way along it from LA, it's mostly signed "North" but towards the end you will pass signs that say "East" and eventually "South".Was92now625 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 13:57
Yes. There is the actual direction and the "official direction" the road is "deemed" to run.
Re: Motorway Directions
Indeed, the point I was making is the US system pretends it is strict and structured but like any system, it just isn't.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- Gareth Thomas
- Member
- Posts: 1725
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 13:43
- Location: Temple Ewell, Kent
- Contact:
Re: Motorway Directions
The M2 and M20 are usually referred to as “Londonbound” and “coastbound” in local Kent media, such as newspapers and radio station traffic alerts.
Personally I would refer to the M20 as west to east rather than north to south. Whilst it is true it runs northwest to south east, as a whole it travels further from west to east than it does north to south. If you were to draw a line from its northern terminus at Junction 1 and another line at its southern terminal at Junction 13, the distance between them would be less than the distance between the lines from its western and eastern termini, if that makes any sense! Similarly the A21 would be a north to south road as while it too travels north west to south east, it travels further south than it does east.
Personally I would refer to the M20 as west to east rather than north to south. Whilst it is true it runs northwest to south east, as a whole it travels further from west to east than it does north to south. If you were to draw a line from its northern terminus at Junction 1 and another line at its southern terminal at Junction 13, the distance between them would be less than the distance between the lines from its western and eastern termini, if that makes any sense! Similarly the A21 would be a north to south road as while it too travels north west to south east, it travels further south than it does east.
My journey with testicular cancer!
https://garethishalfnuts.wordpress.com/
"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads..."
-Dr Emmett Brown
https://garethishalfnuts.wordpress.com/
"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads..."
-Dr Emmett Brown
Re: Motorway Directions
Making a sweeping statement about the US Road numbering system is an error in my opinion. At best at the level of US Highways and Interstates there are guidelines, the main one is that the roads that trend mainly North South get odd numbers and those east west even numbers. So the main highways between South West and North West is US 101 and I-5
These numbers are actually assigned by American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) . This is NOT a branch of the federal government it is rather the a grouping of US States which cooperated to try and produce a semblance of order in much the same was roads were classified here in the 1920's . It is at best structured but not strict. US 101 was assigned that number quite late in the day. It was originally several separate roads including the Coast Highway, Oregon Coast Highway etc.
At the state level all bets are off, they all do it differently, indeed in many parts of the mid west the minor road numbers are simply alphanumeric codes assigned by the surveyors to identify land allocation under the homestead act while in New England roads more closely follow the pattern used in England before 1922
What is now I-95 in Connecticut was originally called by various names including The Connecticut Turnpike, Governor John Davies Lodge Turnpike and the Waterford Parkway, it is one of the exceptions in regard to numbering as that section runs mainly east west due to the local geography. As the original names suggest they were toll roads just as were the contemporary Turnpike Roads in England.
http://www.american-historama.org/1801- ... he%201800s.
One of the first roads funded at the Federal Level was what is now US 40 which at the time was called The National Road.
Re: Motorway Directions
Radio traffic reporters refer to the M3 as both northbound/southbound and eastbound/westbound. It is both really, either side of Popham, J8.
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
Re: Motorway Directions
I do think on each individual motorway there probably ought to be an agreed standardised description for each direction that is used for the whole route regardless of any more specific quirks of the route. For the M25, this would be clockwise and anti-clockwise, as used on the radio IME, rather than the cardinal directions that seem to be increasingly used on overhead warning messages. For the M6 and the M40 this would be northbound and southbound as that would be more meaningful for long distance travellers who may be less aware of the more east-west nature of the southern parts of each road. While someone travelling from Rugby to Birmingham or Denham to Oxford is certainly going more east-west, I don't think they are likely to be confused by a description of the carriageways heading towards Manchester or Birmingham as being northbound. As someone who comes from just north of London, I do tend to think of the M3 as a north-south route as it is a route towards much of the south coast.
Re: Motorway Directions
The AASHO is like road numbering, and other co-ordinated aspects, being handled in the UK by the Institute of Civil Engineers. In retrospect not a bad idea.KeithW wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 08:11
These numbers are actually assigned by American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) . This is NOT a branch of the federal government it is rather the a grouping of US States which cooperated to try and produce a semblance of order in much the same was roads were classified here in the 1920's . It is at best structured but not strict. US 101 was assign
Before the US numbering standard approach, it was done by a number of private companies associated with selling their road maps. These showed numbered routes, and each company went out and affixed their own, each distinctively shaped, numbers and arrow directions to any convenient telephone pole. Rand McNally were a pioneer. As multiple different publishers did this on the same route, with different numbers, it became a complete mess. This was also the forerunner of today's different-shaped "shields" for official US road numbers, whether interstate, US, State or Local. It's also why the USD is so wedded to numbers, with their North/South plate underneath, rather than destinations.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1185
- Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
- Location: Gone
Re: Motorway Directions
Agreed. And it works in other situations...
The UK's Wiring Regulations (officially BS 7671) are actually "owned" by the Institution of Engineering and Technology (nee Institution of Electrical Engineers) but published with their BS number for regulatory reasons.
-
- New Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2021 21:11
Re: Motorway Directions
Interestingly on the M6 front, it is (or at least was) referred to as both N/S and W/E around Junction 1.
If you approach on the A426 from Rugby, at the roundabout before the motorway junction (Central Park/Rugby Gateway) the painted markings indicate left lane for M6N and right lane for M6S: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40139 ... 312!8i6656
However, when you are on the roundabout above the motorway, M6 West and East are painted on the road in the right hand lane when crossing the motorway on each side: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40803 ... 312!8i6656https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40818 ... 384!8i8192
I suspect the W/E markings have been lost during the excessive redesign and excavation of the roundabout for the new services - money would be far better spent on the Gibbet Roundabout where the A426 crosses the A5, or including an M1N access from the M6S at Catthorpe... but I'll save that for another topic!
If you approach on the A426 from Rugby, at the roundabout before the motorway junction (Central Park/Rugby Gateway) the painted markings indicate left lane for M6N and right lane for M6S: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40139 ... 312!8i6656
However, when you are on the roundabout above the motorway, M6 West and East are painted on the road in the right hand lane when crossing the motorway on each side: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40803 ... 312!8i6656https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40818 ... 384!8i8192
I suspect the W/E markings have been lost during the excessive redesign and excavation of the roundabout for the new services - money would be far better spent on the Gibbet Roundabout where the A426 crosses the A5, or including an M1N access from the M6S at Catthorpe... but I'll save that for another topic!
Re: Motorway Directions
And it has been discussed in regard to the Catthorpe redesign. As I recall the levels of traffic using that movement were so low that it was deemed unnecessary, the levels of traffic on the A426 are low enough (12k) to suggest this was a reasonable decision. Anyone who recalls the old junction will now what a disaster that was.matt_outhwaite wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 23:43 I suspect the W/E markings have been lost during the excessive redesign and excavation of the roundabout for the new services - money would be far better spent on the Gibbet Roundabout where the A426 crosses the A5, or including an M1N access from the M6S at Catthorpe... but I'll save that for another topic!
As for the Gibbet Roundabout its not a point where I have been delayed by heavy traffic on the A5.
-
- New Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2021 21:11
Re: Motorway Directions
The A426 is regularly queuing most of the way back to the M6 from the Gibbet roundabout at peak times.KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 08:40And it has been discussed in regard to the Catthorpe redesign. As I recall the levels of traffic using that movement were so low that it was deemed unnecessary, the levels of traffic on the A426 are low enough (12k) to suggest this was a reasonable decision. Anyone who recalls the old junction will now what a disaster that was.matt_outhwaite wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 23:43 I suspect the W/E markings have been lost during the excessive redesign and excavation of the roundabout for the new services - money would be far better spent on the Gibbet Roundabout where the A426 crosses the A5, or including an M1N access from the M6S at Catthorpe... but I'll save that for another topic!
As for the Gibbet Roundabout its not a point where I have been delayed by heavy traffic on the A5.
When approaching from Lutterworth, near misses happen regularly for various reasons. It is not a good roundabout.
Catthorpe is massively improved, without question. However, I'm fairly sure at a time when any traffic studies were completed, the volume of traffic leaving Rugby heading north on the M1 has increased significantly, and it seemed short sighted to not include that option.
Either way, this topic is about motorway directions, and my post was about paint on the road!
- Vierwielen
- Member
- Posts: 5715
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
- Location: Hampshire
Re: Motorway Directions
AS someone who lives close to the M3, I tend to think of it as an east-west motorway up to Junction 8 and then as a north-south motorway from Junction 8 onwards. My grandmother used to live in Dorset and my aunt in Devon, so to visit them I would join the M3 and Junction 4a or Junction 5, head westwards and and Junction 8 continue westwards while the M3 swung south.trickstat wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 13:03 I do think on each individual motorway there probably ought to be an agreed standardised description for each direction that is used for the whole route regardless of any more specific quirks of the route. For the M25, this would be clockwise and anti-clockwise, as used on the radio IME, rather than the cardinal directions that seem to be increasingly used on overhead warning messages. For the M6 and the M40 this would be northbound and southbound as that would be more meaningful for long distance travellers who may be less aware of the more east-west nature of the southern parts of each road. While someone travelling from Rugby to Birmingham or Denham to Oxford is certainly going more east-west, I don't think they are likely to be confused by a description of the carriageways heading towards Manchester or Birmingham as being northbound. As someone who comes from just north of London, I do tend to think of the M3 as a north-south route as it is a route towards much of the south coast.