Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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Scratchwood
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Scratchwood »

I'm terrified of heights, so would never walk across the Humber Bridge anyway, or indeed the similar one across the M48 Severn Bridge, as the railing isn't high enough to make me feel "safe"

The notorious Archway Road bridge has had significant modifications to make it much harder to commit suicide from. Quite ugly though, and an expensive solution for far longer bridges
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Conekicker
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:22
c2R wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:16
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:19
Yes, cyclists have always been ordered to use one of the side paths, that's what they were built for.

I would love to see the Equalities Act compliance statement for this knee-jerk. Trust a local newspaper to be in favour of a reactionary measure as well, they're always good for whipping up a frenzy and not thinking through the consequences.

It is the responsibility of the HBB to mitigate the risks of someone jumping, not in question, but it is equally their responsibility to comply with accessibility and equality laws so as I said earlier this has the hallmarks of a massive test case.
I hope that someone does bring that case as just closing part of the cycle network isn't a helpful solution... it can't be beyond the wit of the HBB to design some suicide prevention measures - although of course they would presumably require listed buildings consent, so it probably isn't as straightforward as attaching a metal mesh cage around the top of the footway.
The easiest fix would be to extend the parapet height and design it so you can't just climb over. This shouldn't be too difficult to achieve even with a listed structure, the separate paths are at a lower level to the carriageway and would not obscure visibility for anyone either.
Wind-loading and air turbulence would need to be considered. Which would take bridge engineers months if not years to sort out.
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c2R
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by c2R »

Scratchwood wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:52
The notorious Archway Road bridge has had significant modifications to make it much harder to commit suicide from. Quite ugly though, and an expensive solution for far longer bridges
Wow, I'd not seen those yet as I've not been down that way in the last year... they really function over style, aren't they?
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by the cheesecake man »

I walked over the Humber Bridge once. It was quite a satisfying experience. I'm sure it would have been a great view if I'd dared to look. The fences did seem crazily low being only bog standard pedestrian fences suited to a busy road not an obvious suicide hotspot.

"On more than 200 occasions people have jumped or fallen from the bridge since it was opened in 1981; only five people have survived." (Wikipedia)
Why is there a sudden need to do something about it now after forty years?

Taller fences were installed at the northern end. Perhaps the job should be finished.

Hownsgill Viaduct near Consett has an impressive barrier fitted after too many deaths so there's certainly less draconian alternatives to closure.

I thought we were supposed to be encouraging cycling now?
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by KeithW »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 13:26 I walked over the Humber Bridge once. It was quite a satisfying experience. I'm sure it would have been a great view if I'd dared to look. The fences did seem crazily low being only bog standard pedestrian fences suited to a busy road not an obvious suicide hotspot.

"On more than 200 occasions people have jumped or fallen from the bridge since it was opened in 1981; only five people have survived." (Wikipedia)
Why is there a sudden need to do something about it now after forty years?

Taller fences were installed at the northern end. Perhaps the job should be finished.

Hownsgill Viaduct near Consett has an impressive barrier fitted after too many deaths so there's certainly less draconian alternatives to closure.

I thought we were supposed to be encouraging cycling now?
Fencing something that long takes time to specify, get bids, order and fit. As for the Northern end there is a country park underneath it so I suspect its less about suicide prevention than vandalism , specifically stuff being thrown off the walkway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.71809 ... 312!8i6656

Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by FosseWay »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 13:26 I walked over the Humber Bridge once. It was quite a satisfying experience. I'm sure it would have been a great view if I'd dared to look. The fences did seem crazily low being only bog standard pedestrian fences suited to a busy road not an obvious suicide hotspot.
This bridge at the mouth of the river in Gothenburg used to be on my commute to Volvo. There's a two-lane cycle/ped path on each side, with railings beyond. A couple of summers ago they replaced the railings - the ones you see here are the new ones. The old ones were a bit lower and without the extensions of the uprights, so were easier to climb over. But while they were replacing them there were stretches where you only had the blue structural bridge parts between you and a 45 metre drop to the river (or a shorter drop but harder landing to the deck of the ferry to Denmark). It can blow a bit up there and it did give me a funny feeling in me wossnames cycling over there with no barrier :shock:
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Hdeng16 »

Barkstar wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:37 I am a little confused after watching some of the video and reading his remarks re the traffic police. So as told by the police the bridge is private property, they can do what they like.... but he got a ticking off from the same police for using the highway across it, having been told he can by the people controlling access to said private property.... Of course the highway must be under our usual regulations but it is something of a mess, highlighted by this situation, that being on the bridge is one persons call but what you can do is someone else's.
Yeah that confused me - would it not be a civil matter as a trespass?

The best solution here is probably not to push it - for the time being at least - and accept a temporary closure. The idiotic mistake was closing the paths without notice and use the word "indefinitely". It just does sit right.

https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/humberbridge/news/

The latest statement is better. They are looking to get commuters back on the bridge (both cycle and foot traffic). I would assume that they possibly feel the end of lockdown may well help the mental health of those affected in a positive way and the "problem" may go away - for now at least. I've also read comments from a number of locals who state that they are struggling, and a run or walk across the bridge has actually help their own mental health - solo exercise in an interesting location.

I did also wonder (and this is just speculation) whether there was evidence of a 'tiktok trend' or similar pushing the bridge as a location to take one's own life. They might explain the sudden closure, despite the suicide issues being ongoing for decades.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by jackal »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 09:56
jackal wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 16:08
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 00:04
Quite so. Without wishing to be ghoulish, this measure is unlikely to prevent anyone taking their own life. It will just prevent people taking their own lives on Humber Bridge Board property.
While that may seem intuitive it is false. See, for instance, "Restricting access to a suicide hotspot does not shift the problem to another location. An experiment of two river bridges in Brisbane, Australia":

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 6405.12157

See also this meta study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 60lRqVqICA
I haven't read the entire article (am at work), but the abstract doesn't make it clear whether suicides went down *overall* after the restrictions or whether it was just suicide from tall structures that went down. I think Chris's point is that someone to whom a tall bridge is not available may then choose a completely different suicide method. (Though it's important to bear in mind that different suicide methods have different likelihoods of survival. Someone who takes pills may either have time to change their mind and seek help, or be found by someone before it's too late. Someone who jumps off a bridge has no such second chance, and that is an important distinction regardless of the conclusions of the paper.)
They didn't really look at that, presumably because 'jumping from a high place' as a whole is only a small % of suicides (5.3% in Brisbane). For instance, a hypothetical 50% reduction in 'jumping from a high place' that didn't transfer to a different method would seem very worthwhile, yet in the overall numbers it would be outweighed by a 3% increase in other suicides due to any other cause or mere statistical noise.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by djw1981 »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:48
KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:42
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 08:01 Surely a risk assessment has been done, and mitigating steps put in place (eg fencing) for any significant bridge ?
Risk assessments of that sort do not usually include the risk of suicide, except in such cases as police cells, prisons and mental hospitals where it is a known issue and the staff have a duty of care. Typical bridges have barriers that are easy to climb over such as here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.55831 ... 8192?hl=en

One example of transport infrastructure where that became a problem was the walkway of the Middlesbrough Transporter Bridge which was closed to the public for a number of years after a string of suicides. This seems to have been replaced as a choice of suicides by the Leven Valley viaduct over the A19.
Having seen the fencing, signage and phones on the Erskine Bridge I assumed, clearly wrongly, that all local authorities would have made similar assessments and taken appropriate action.
Erskine had a very specific issue with a nearby residential centre for young people in care and a double fatality.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by the cheesecake man »

KeithW wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 14:38 Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en
Wowsers! :yikes:
It's still bigger than the barrier on the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct!
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by mikehindsonevans »

the cheesecake man wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 13:15
KeithW wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 14:38 Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en
Wowsers! :yikes:
It's still bigger than the barrier on the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct!
I have walked across the original Severn Bridge on a number of occasions over the decades, being dropped off or collected by the then-current wife.

Admiring the wonderful, uplifting and truly-inspiring views in each direction (plus the steady transformations of the old MAGNOX power stations at Oldbury and Berkeley to the north) there is no way that I would consider suddenly "turning left" (or turning right!) between either end.

Having supported one dying wife through her final eight terminal months more than 20 years ago, I have a specific inability to see any credible justification for throwing away a perfectly-serviceable life. But that's just my take on the topic. I do take mental health seriously and feel sorry for those who have problems coping with life.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by c2R »

I've walked across both the Humber bridge on a few occasions, and the Severn Bridge once (as luck would have it a meeting I had driven to Bristol for was cancelled and I had time to kill before the following morning) and you're right, Mike, the afternoon/evening views walking across the bridge were spectacular. The only disappointment I had was that the eastbound side footbridge was closed for repairs so I couldn't walk both sides!
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en

I started my career in the Royal Engineers in 1976 at the Army Apprentice College in Chepstow which was in the shadow of the Severn Bridge. On a Sunday afternoon when we were free to do as we wished a couple of us decided to walk the footpath over the bridge to the Aust service area, have a coffee and walk back , as can be seen from the gratuitous topless pic of a 17 yr old Coneman it was a rather nice day. :D
AAC Chepstow 1977.jpg
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by bikingbunny »

jervi wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 16:52 https://road.cc/content/news/humber-bri ... ely-282289
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news ... ly-5261158

Due to a number of deaths at the Humber bridge recently, the path that runs beside it on both side that is used by bicycles and pedestrians is closed indefinitely.

From what I understand, the deaths are not related to safety of the path itself, but are those taking their own lives. Not entirely sure if closing the path will in anyway be effective since it will still be accessible if you really wanted to get on it, nor does it solve the root issues.
I believe the ban is more aimed at stopping cyclists from using the crossing for free while motor vehicles have to pay rather than actually "fixing" the current issues with it.

By the looks of it there will be no provision for pedestrians or cycles to cross, such as at Dartford where HE will facilitate the crossing. Hopefully some sort of provision will be established during the closure, especially if there is no plan to reopen since there are historical rights to cross here prior to bridge opening.

Currently a bicycle journey from Hull to Barton is 9 miles. now it will be 42 miles.
For a country that is supposed to becoming more cycling friendly we are not exactly doing very well. What ever happen to the Government idea of putting cycling on prescription? That died a death even before it even got on the drawing board. :twisted: :confused: We could with another major medal blitz again at the Olympics...if they ever happen!
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by c2R »

coneman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 16:51 Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en

I started my career in the Royal Engineers in 1976 at the Army Apprentice College in Chepstow which was in the shadow of the Severn Bridge. On a Sunday afternoon when we were free to do as we wished a couple of us decided to walk the footpath over the bridge to the Aust service area, have a coffee and walk back , as can be seen from the gratuitous topless pic of a 17 yr old Coneman it was a rather nice day. :D

AAC Chepstow 1977.jpg

How much sunburn did you get ;)
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by coneman »

c2R wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 20:12
coneman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 16:51 Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en

I started my career in the Royal Engineers in 1976 at the Army Apprentice College in Chepstow which was in the shadow of the Severn Bridge. On a Sunday afternoon when we were free to do as we wished a couple of us decided to walk the footpath over the bridge to the Aust service area, have a coffee and walk back , as can be seen from the gratuitous topless pic of a 17 yr old Coneman it was a rather nice day. :D

AAC Chepstow 1977.jpg

How much sunburn did you get ;)
Ah none ! - or at least you never owned up or went sick with sunburn as you could be put on a charge and your free time at the weekends would be taken up by peeling spuds in the cookhouse. :(

I trained as a Heavy Plant Operator and one of our training sites was directly under the Severn Bridge where it crossed the Beachley peninsula , when doing classroom instruction all you could hear was the constant GADDUNK, GADDUNK , GADDUCK of vehicles overhead going over the metallic bridge joints, 44 years later I can still hear it.
Many a guid tune played on an auld fiddle.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Fenlander »

bikingbunny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 19:15We could with another major medal blitz again at the Olympics...if they ever happen!
The pharmaceutical companies are otherwise distracted at the moment, wait til they’re a bit quieter and can concentrate on cyclists again.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Chris Bertram »

Fenlander wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 22:50
bikingbunny wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 19:15We could with another major medal blitz again at the Olympics...if they ever happen!
The pharmaceutical companies are otherwise distracted at the moment, wait til they’re a bit quieter and can concentrate on cyclists again.
Ooh, edgy ...
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by solocle »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 00:41
the cheesecake man wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 13:15
KeithW wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 14:38 Meanwhile the fence on the M48 original Severn Bridge looks like this
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.60850 ... 8192?hl=en
Wowsers! :yikes:
It's still bigger than the barrier on the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct!
I have walked across the original Severn Bridge on a number of occasions over the decades, being dropped off or collected by the then-current wife.

Admiring the wonderful, uplifting and truly-inspiring views in each direction (plus the steady transformations of the old MAGNOX power stations at Oldbury and Berkeley to the north) there is no way that I would consider suddenly "turning left" (or turning right!) between either end.

Having supported one dying wife through her final eight terminal months more than 20 years ago, I have a specific inability to see any credible justification for throwing away a perfectly-serviceable life. But that's just my take on the topic. I do take mental health seriously and feel sorry for those who have problems coping with life.
I cycled across the bridge in November 2018, shortly before the abolition of the tolls. High saddle + low fence, and it's noticeable how the bridge moves slightly in the wind! I was actually doing Oxford-Bristol, but figured that I had time to detour across the bridge, just to visit another country.

It would be quite sketchy in high winds... but at least if the winds are very high, they close the carriageway, so a bit of illicit motorway riding to get away from the precipice there... certainly preferable to a 60 mile detour.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Hdeng16 »

Summarising the detailed questions he put to the Humber Bridge Board in the letter, Dollimore wrote:

1. Has any traffic regulation order (TRO) been consulted upon, advertised or made to authorise the restriction on the footway, and if so, can you provide a copy of any relevant notification and order?

2. If the TRO process has not been used, under what authority or power has this decision has been made?

3. Whether the decision to impose these restrictions was made by the Board or through delegated powers and, if the latter, whether and when the Board intends to revisit this decision?

4. Can you provide the pedestrian and cyclist traffic count data both pre and post covid to confirm the daily number of cyclists and pedestrian trips across the bridge?

5. What, if any, temporary mitigation measures are being put in place to provide alternative means for cyclists and pedestrians to cross the bridge, or to cross the Humber Estuary in the vicinity of the bridge, whilst the footway remains closed, and when might they be implemented?

The Humber Bridge Board said earlier this week that it is “looking at reopening access to commuters as soon as possible, to minimise disruption to those who cycle or walk to work over the Humber Bridge, and we are considering a range of measures to ensure the situation can be effectively managed once the footways fully reopen.”

Cycling UK has said that it will communicate the Board’s response to its letter once it has been received.
Brilliant questions from Cycling UK. More here:

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-uk ... ure-282427
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