Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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jackal
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by jackal »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 00:04
Barkstar wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 23:36 It's on my UK bucket list to walk across. So hopefully some sort of resolution is found. Given you'd have to make a some effort to get to the bridge to jump it strikes me someone intent on doing so would find an alternative.
Quite so. Without wishing to be ghoulish, this measure is unlikely to prevent anyone taking their own life. It will just prevent people taking their own lives on Humber Bridge Board property.
While that may seem intuitive it is false. See, for instance, "Restricting access to a suicide hotspot does not shift the problem to another location. An experiment of two river bridges in Brisbane, Australia":

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 6405.12157

See also this meta study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 60lRqVqICA
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by KeithW »

punyXpress wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 15:55 Since this is within a whisker of 1st April, I hope it isn't someone's idea of a joke.
Certainly not from Sabre members, but there are an awful lot of strange folks around.
There is no reason it should be, that some locations become for want of a better word fashionable locations of self extinction is a know phenomenon. One of the earliest associated with road transport was the Clifton Suspension Bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_sites

When it comes to how there was a period in the 1960's when there was a spate of people killing themselves by driving into bridge abutments on motorways. Prior to natural gas being introduced coal gas poisoning was the default method in the UK, in the USA drinking Lysol, a very powerful disinfectant was common despite it being a particularly nasty way to die. In the 20th century barbiturates were the in thing with the middle classes.

One thing is fairly universal, doctors are the group most likely to successfully attempt suicide, leaving aside motivation they usually have both the knowledge and means to bring it about.
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Stevie D
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Stevie D »

A1OZZ wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 06:04 Hopefully a resolution will be forthcoming. It was the main reason I stayed in Hull to visit/explore the Humber Bridge by bike.

The Humber Bridge is part of National Cycle Route 1 so will be a massive gap in the route if permanently closed.
Also part of the England Coast Path (although at least walkers can get a bus from one side).
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by M4 Cardiff »

Stevie D wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 18:14
A1OZZ wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 06:04 Hopefully a resolution will be forthcoming. It was the main reason I stayed in Hull to visit/explore the Humber Bridge by bike.

The Humber Bridge is part of National Cycle Route 1 so will be a massive gap in the route if permanently closed.
Also part of the England Coast Path (although at least walkers can get a bus from one side).
I would assume that Sustrans will have lawyers looking at this in quite some detail. However of course that might be why according to the description up-thread, the closure is more of a request rather than a legally-binding closure. And since there is not a safety emergency with the bridge itself, I assume that a safety-related emergency closure would not pass legal scrutiny.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Chris5156 »

jackal wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 16:08
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 00:04
Barkstar wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 23:36 It's on my UK bucket list to walk across. So hopefully some sort of resolution is found. Given you'd have to make a some effort to get to the bridge to jump it strikes me someone intent on doing so would find an alternative.
Quite so. Without wishing to be ghoulish, this measure is unlikely to prevent anyone taking their own life. It will just prevent people taking their own lives on Humber Bridge Board property.
While that may seem intuitive it is false. See, for instance, "Restricting access to a suicide hotspot does not shift the problem to another location. An experiment of two river bridges in Brisbane, Australia":

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 6405.12157

See also this meta study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 60lRqVqICA
That's really interesting! Thanks for the links.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by XC70 »

Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by delinquentwoody »

The local paper has come out in support of the closure...

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hu ... re-5265735

Apparently there have been 6 suicides in March with two of these being under 14s which I think contributed to their rash decision.

There's an interesting nugget towards the end of the article..

"The spokesman added: “The Humber Bridge Board currently spends a quarter of a million pounds each year on measures designed to prevent emotionally distressed individuals from ending their lives at the bridge."

I'd be curious what they spend £5k a week on here.. all I've ever seen is a sign at each end of the path.. I too am of the opinion that if someone is going to end their life they will find an alternative way.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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Chris5156 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 20:36 That's really interesting! Thanks for the links.
You're welcome.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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XC70 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 21:16 Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
Why would you assume that ? restricting bicycles and pedestrians can be done with a TRO , that is what was done on the A19 Tees Viaduct.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 23:32
XC70 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 21:16 Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
Why would you assume that ? restricting bicycles and pedestrians can be done with a TRO , that is what was done on the A19 Tees Viaduct.
I see. So is that what is in place?
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by KeithW »

XC70 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 07:06
KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 23:32
XC70 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 21:16 Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
Why would you assume that ? restricting bicycles and pedestrians can be done with a TRO , that is what was done on the A19 Tees Viaduct.
I see. So is that what is in place?
I dont know but they have issued temporary TRO's on the Humber Bridge in the past.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Hdeng16 »

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hu ... ce-5264739

Normally I would be against these police 'botherers' on youtube, but to be told to use the main carriageway (which is probably the more likely to have a legal order against cycling) seems ridiculous.

Original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW4hR51Gilw
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by FosseWay »

jackal wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 16:08
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 00:04
Barkstar wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 23:36 It's on my UK bucket list to walk across. So hopefully some sort of resolution is found. Given you'd have to make a some effort to get to the bridge to jump it strikes me someone intent on doing so would find an alternative.
Quite so. Without wishing to be ghoulish, this measure is unlikely to prevent anyone taking their own life. It will just prevent people taking their own lives on Humber Bridge Board property.
While that may seem intuitive it is false. See, for instance, "Restricting access to a suicide hotspot does not shift the problem to another location. An experiment of two river bridges in Brisbane, Australia":

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 6405.12157

See also this meta study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 60lRqVqICA
I haven't read the entire article (am at work), but the abstract doesn't make it clear whether suicides went down *overall* after the restrictions or whether it was just suicide from tall structures that went down. I think Chris's point is that someone to whom a tall bridge is not available may then choose a completely different suicide method. (Though it's important to bear in mind that different suicide methods have different likelihoods of survival. Someone who takes pills may either have time to change their mind and seek help, or be found by someone before it's too late. Someone who jumps off a bridge has no such second chance, and that is an important distinction regardless of the conclusions of the paper.)

But overall I second what Ritchie wrote on the previous page of responses. Address the life problems and mental health conditions that lead people to even contemplate taking their life rather than taking measures like this, especially when they're such a blunt instrument and negatively affect the huge majority of bridge users who are not suicidal.

I'd be decidedly unimpressed if I lived on the south side and worked in Hull and cycled to work. A friend of mine used to live in Chepstow and work in Avonmouth, and would commute by bicycle over the M48 bridge daily, so such a scenario is not far-fetched.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Stevie D »

KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 23:32
XC70 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 21:16 Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
Why would you assume that ? restricting bicycles and pedestrians can be done with a TRO , that is what was done on the A19 Tees Viaduct.
There is signage (that looks like it has been in place for some time!) prohibiting cyclists from using the main carriageway:
https://goo.gl/maps/iUUp7F2zXz6M7H7y6
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Stevie D »

FosseWay wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 09:56I haven't read the entire article (am at work), but the abstract doesn't make it clear whether suicides went down *overall* after the restrictions or whether it was just suicide from tall structures that went down. I think Chris's point is that someone to whom a tall bridge is not available may then choose a completely different suicide method. (Though it's important to bear in mind that different suicide methods have different likelihoods of survival. Someone who takes pills may either have time to change their mind and seek help, or be found by someone before it's too late. Someone who jumps off a bridge has no such second chance, and that is an important distinction regardless of the conclusions of the paper.)
Suicide prevention measures that close down possible options do work, that's why we implement them. We make it harder to jump off bridges. We make it difficult for people to buy too much medication that would enable them to overdose. No, nothing is perfect, but it all contributes. The harder you make it, the fewer people go through with it. Yes, there will always be some people who have the knowledge or wherewithal to get around the prevention measures, or whose first choice is a method that doesn't have them in place, but what it stops are the being making impulsive choices. A lot of suicides are not extensively premeditated, but are relatively spur-of-the-moment and opportunistic. Take away the opportunity and people need to put in more planning and effort over a longer period of time, and that is what is the key – the longer they have to spend thinking about it, the more likely they are to have second thoughts and back out of it.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Bryn666 »

Stevie D wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:07
KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 23:32
XC70 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 21:16 Is there actually a legal order preventing cycling on the carriageway? I am assuming it is a special road?
Why would you assume that ? restricting bicycles and pedestrians can be done with a TRO , that is what was done on the A19 Tees Viaduct.
There is signage (that looks like it has been in place for some time!) prohibiting cyclists from using the main carriageway:
https://goo.gl/maps/iUUp7F2zXz6M7H7y6
Yes, cyclists have always been ordered to use one of the side paths, that's what they were built for.

I would love to see the Equalities Act compliance statement for this knee-jerk. Trust a local newspaper to be in favour of a reactionary measure as well, they're always good for whipping up a frenzy and not thinking through the consequences.

It is the responsibility of the HBB to mitigate the risks of someone jumping, not in question, but it is equally their responsibility to comply with accessibility and equality laws so as I said earlier this has the hallmarks of a massive test case.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Barkstar »

I am a little confused after watching some of the video and reading his remarks re the traffic police. So as told by the police the bridge is private property, they can do what they like.... but he got a ticking off from the same police for using the highway across it, having been told he can by the people controlling access to said private property.... Of course the highway must be under our usual regulations but it is something of a mess, highlighted by this situation, that being on the bridge is one persons call but what you can do is someone else's.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Stevie D »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:19Yes, cyclists have always been ordered to use one of the side paths, that's what they were built for.
Although interestingly, I can't see any signage on GSV that indicates pedestrians are not allowed to walk on the main carriageway. Not that I have any intention of doing so as a test case, because it would be incredibly dangerous.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:19
Yes, cyclists have always been ordered to use one of the side paths, that's what they were built for.

I would love to see the Equalities Act compliance statement for this knee-jerk. Trust a local newspaper to be in favour of a reactionary measure as well, they're always good for whipping up a frenzy and not thinking through the consequences.

It is the responsibility of the HBB to mitigate the risks of someone jumping, not in question, but it is equally their responsibility to comply with accessibility and equality laws so as I said earlier this has the hallmarks of a massive test case.
I hope that someone does bring that case as just closing part of the cycle network isn't a helpful solution... it can't be beyond the wit of the HBB to design some suicide prevention measures - although of course they would presumably require listed buildings consent, so it probably isn't as straightforward as attaching a metal mesh cage around the top of the footway.
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Re: Humber Bridge foot/cycle way closed indefinitely.

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:16
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:19
Yes, cyclists have always been ordered to use one of the side paths, that's what they were built for.

I would love to see the Equalities Act compliance statement for this knee-jerk. Trust a local newspaper to be in favour of a reactionary measure as well, they're always good for whipping up a frenzy and not thinking through the consequences.

It is the responsibility of the HBB to mitigate the risks of someone jumping, not in question, but it is equally their responsibility to comply with accessibility and equality laws so as I said earlier this has the hallmarks of a massive test case.
I hope that someone does bring that case as just closing part of the cycle network isn't a helpful solution... it can't be beyond the wit of the HBB to design some suicide prevention measures - although of course they would presumably require listed buildings consent, so it probably isn't as straightforward as attaching a metal mesh cage around the top of the footway.
The easiest fix would be to extend the parapet height and design it so you can't just climb over. This shouldn't be too difficult to achieve even with a listed structure, the separate paths are at a lower level to the carriageway and would not obscure visibility for anyone either.
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