Pedestrians on Motorways

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solocle
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by solocle »

Debaser wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:37
FosseWay wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:17
Debaser wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:03 Of course. Such is the inability of the average British engineer to design properly for walking and cycling, that even here, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory. Try getting a laden touring bike (presumably the user group the designers had in mind) through that gap.
:facepalm:

For a start, the cycle path should have priority over turning traffic, like in civilised countries.

But even leaving aside that general point - and I realise you can't necessarily apply a different priority here when everywhere else in the UK has something else - those barriers are unnecessary. What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with a give way sign and appropriate road markings? What is that side road anyway? It doesn't look like a through road to anywhere. What is the usage level of the junction for motor vehicles?

They're unnecessary. But they are also dangerous, as evidenced by the aftermarket application of black and yellow tape. When you're driving along in a car on a normal highway, you do not expect your way to be physically blocked by solid metal bars that will put you in hospital if you hit them. Indeed, we go out of our way to ensure that objects erected *off* the roadway are as forgiving as possible if hit by errant vehicles. But we stick iron piping just at handlebar height across cycle paths. Huh?
It's actually worse than that. Streetview hasn't been updated for a while, but since it last was an access to a windfarm has been created south of that access, which places two small (600mm-ish) black bollards directly in the middle of the two marked lanes on the cycle track. To ensure absolute safety, the one on the northbound lane (i.e. heading towards the access) has a cute little give-way sign mounted on it. Easily the smallest give-way sign I've ever seen. The Stage 3 road safety audit did point out that this layout was absurd and a collision risk. However, this was the highway authority's standard layout - god help them - so it stayed in.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by djw1981 »

KeithW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 18:48
djw1981 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 15:57
Nearly all the rural M74 / A74(M) has a parallel route, following almost the same line, specifically designed for walkers, cycling etc, so the question is more why provide 2 routes when segregation by speed is possible.

Well the A74(M)/M74 certainly has a parallel route - B7076 but for the most part its the original A74 and was definitely not designed for walkers and cyclists.
When it was singled, the route had specific provision for NCR and walkers installed as a cycle / walking route down the abandonned carriageway for the most part. So it was designed as part of the singling?
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by jervi »

Conekicker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 22:06
Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on ( :roll: ) the word "troll" comes to mind.
I agree. Someone is going against the SMT's wishes of "be respectful to other users and the posting guidelines" and then playing victim while stirring up nationalistic views against a reasonable group of people.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

djw1981 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 02:05 When it was singled, the route had specific provision for NCR and walkers installed as a cycle / walking route down the abandonned carriageway for the most part. So it was designed as part of the singling?
Well no - the old A74 was designed as a coaching route, was dualled in places but was always an All Purpose road open to non motorised traffic, just like most roads other than motorways. The 'specific' provision' outside towns is for the most part a single white line painted on the road.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.09393 ... 6656?hl=en

The main 'adaptation' that makes it suitable for non motorised users is of course the diversion of most of the traffic onto the A74(M). Let me show you an example from England - this is the old - now bypassed A1 in North Yorkshire.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.36787 ... 6656?hl=en

In a sense of course this was built for walkers - Roman Legionaries in the first instance as this was Dere Street, the marching route for the Legions from Eboracum to the forward base at Cataractonium.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.36787 ... 6656?hl=en
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Herned »

KeithW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 21:06 You are talking about a road that was designed by Thomas Telford in the 19th-century as coaching route between Glasgow and Carlisle. It was designed it 1814-15 and opened in 1825, it may have been remiss of him not to cater for bicycles but he assuredly knew about pedestrians :)
No, they aren't. The basic route is, but the conversion of one carriageway to a cycle lane and the atrocious design standards of it is a contemporary decision.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

Herned wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 08:22
KeithW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 21:06 You are talking about a road that was designed by Thomas Telford in the 19th-century as coaching route between Glasgow and Carlisle. It was designed it 1814-15 and opened in 1825, it may have been remiss of him not to cater for bicycles but he assuredly knew about pedestrians :)
No, they aren't. The basic route is, but the conversion of one carriageway to a cycle lane and the atrocious design standards of it is a contemporary decision.

Which was rather my point, it was NOT part of the design of the road, it was local officials tinkering with an existing road layout.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by solocle »

Herned wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 08:22
KeithW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 21:06 You are talking about a road that was designed by Thomas Telford in the 19th-century as coaching route between Glasgow and Carlisle. It was designed it 1814-15 and opened in 1825, it may have been remiss of him not to cater for bicycles but he assuredly knew about pedestrians :)
No, they aren't. The basic route is, but the conversion of one carriageway to a cycle lane and the atrocious design standards of it is a contemporary decision.
I mean, I'd just cycle on the carriageway along there. From an engineering standpoint, if you have regular enough access to the motorway, there's no real reason for the LAR not to be something like a Dutch fietsstraat with a 30 mph or 20 mph speed limit.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by traffic-light-man »

Conekicker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 22:06
Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on ( :roll: ) the word "troll" comes to mind.
I did have to check the date of the first post, but it was 26 days later than I was expecting :lol:
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by FosseWay »

solocle wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:14 I mean, I'd just cycle on the carriageway along there. From an engineering standpoint, if you have regular enough access to the motorway, there's no real reason for the LAR not to be something like a Dutch fietsstraat with a 30 mph or 20 mph speed limit.
I think you've hit on something there.

The Numpty Overload thread and others are infested with people complaining that drivers get fixated on getting past the cyclist/tractor/bus to the exclusion of what's actually going on, such as if the "slow" vehicle is actually keeping up with the flow, or there's nowhere to pull back in after an overtake, and on insisting on their priority even when the road is clearly blocked. I wonder if something similar occurs with planners. We're all human, so it would be weird if we exhibited this fixated behaviour behind the wheel but not in any other part of life.

There's all sorts of standards, initiatives, traffic reduction and environmental improvement schemes and heaven knows what else, which in general aim to make it safer and more pleasant to cycle rather than drive. But I wonder whether planners sometimes install bollards, separated cycle paths, signage.... because they're there, more or less like drivers overtake a cyclist because s/he's there, rather than because they're needed in this particular instance. I've mentioned before the "cycle path" on my road - the shared-use signage has been added because someone at the council had a tickbox to fill in regarding cycling provision, whereas in reality cyclists should really not need segregated facilities on a cul-de-sac with a 30 km/h limit and traffic calming. Conversely, it would be quite nice to be able to walk on the pavement without having to deal with passing bikes, since it's not really wide enough for both.

I wonder if something similar has gone on here. A road that has been deliberately narrowed, had its speed limit reduced and runs parallel to a motorway with reasonably frequent accesses thereto should be perfect for just cycling on. There shouldn't be much traffic, and what there is shouldn't be going that fast. Is a separate cycle path necessary, never mind ones with bollards and give ways every 100 metres? But a superb stretch of former dual carriageway that offers reasonable width, surface and sightlines to a cyclist is inferior according to the tickbox mentality to a specially installed but in all senses inferior and possibly downright dangerous alternative, because the latter shows that Something Has Been Done.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Debaser »

FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:30 I wonder if something similar has gone on here. A road that has been deliberately narrowed, had its speed limit reduced and runs parallel to a motorway with reasonably frequent accesses thereto should be perfect for just cycling on. There shouldn't be much traffic, and what there is shouldn't be going that fast. Is a separate cycle path necessary, never mind ones with bollards and give ways every 100 metres? But a superb stretch of former dual carriageway that offers reasonable width, surface and sightlines to a cyclist is inferior according to the tickbox mentality to a specially installed but in all senses inferior and possibly downright dangerous alternative, because the latter shows that Something Has Been Done.
I'm afraid it's at that bolded part that your statement falls down. Not much traffic maybe, but unfortunately those drivers still using it were treating it very much like a 'driving road' - one to be experienced at high speed (like track days don't exist to get rid of the speed demons). Putting on a 30mph limit, never mind a 20mph one, without average speed cameras or police enforcement would be a hiding to nothing.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by booshank »

Debaser wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 17:48
FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:30 I wonder if something similar has gone on here. A road that has been deliberately narrowed, had its speed limit reduced and runs parallel to a motorway with reasonably frequent accesses thereto should be perfect for just cycling on. There shouldn't be much traffic, and what there is shouldn't be going that fast. Is a separate cycle path necessary, never mind ones with bollards and give ways every 100 metres? But a superb stretch of former dual carriageway that offers reasonable width, surface and sightlines to a cyclist is inferior according to the tickbox mentality to a specially installed but in all senses inferior and possibly downright dangerous alternative, because the latter shows that Something Has Been Done.
I'm afraid it's at that bolded part that your statement falls down. Not much traffic maybe, but unfortunately those drivers still using it were treating it very much like a 'driving road' - one to be experienced at high speed (like track days don't exist to get rid of the speed demons). Putting on a 30mph limit, never mind a 20mph one, without average speed cameras or police enforcement would be a hiding to nothing.
Average speed cameras seem to be by far the most effective solution, but hardly ever used except on motorway roadworks.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by solocle »

booshank wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 18:42
Debaser wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 17:48
FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:30 I wonder if something similar has gone on here. A road that has been deliberately narrowed, had its speed limit reduced and runs parallel to a motorway with reasonably frequent accesses thereto should be perfect for just cycling on. There shouldn't be much traffic, and what there is shouldn't be going that fast. Is a separate cycle path necessary, never mind ones with bollards and give ways every 100 metres? But a superb stretch of former dual carriageway that offers reasonable width, surface and sightlines to a cyclist is inferior according to the tickbox mentality to a specially installed but in all senses inferior and possibly downright dangerous alternative, because the latter shows that Something Has Been Done.
I'm afraid it's at that bolded part that your statement falls down. Not much traffic maybe, but unfortunately those drivers still using it were treating it very much like a 'driving road' - one to be experienced at high speed (like track days don't exist to get rid of the speed demons). Putting on a 30mph limit, never mind a 20mph one, without average speed cameras or police enforcement would be a hiding to nothing.
Average speed cameras seem to be by far the most effective solution, but hardly ever used except on motorway roadworks.
One that would be relatively easy to enforce from camera equipped cyclists would be a simple no overtaking order (except bicycles by bicycles), as seen on the A5 Menai Strait bridge.

Of course, the last time I was cycling in a no overtaking zone (not double white lines), I was notably overtaken by a police car (not on blues and twos)...
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by FosseWay »

Debaser wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 17:48
FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 15:30 I wonder if something similar has gone on here. A road that has been deliberately narrowed, had its speed limit reduced and runs parallel to a motorway with reasonably frequent accesses thereto should be perfect for just cycling on. There shouldn't be much traffic, and what there is shouldn't be going that fast. Is a separate cycle path necessary, never mind ones with bollards and give ways every 100 metres? But a superb stretch of former dual carriageway that offers reasonable width, surface and sightlines to a cyclist is inferior according to the tickbox mentality to a specially installed but in all senses inferior and possibly downright dangerous alternative, because the latter shows that Something Has Been Done.
I'm afraid it's at that bolded part that your statement falls down. Not much traffic maybe, but unfortunately those drivers still using it were treating it very much like a 'driving road' - one to be experienced at high speed (like track days don't exist to get rid of the speed demons). Putting on a 30mph limit, never mind a 20mph one, without average speed cameras or police enforcement would be a hiding to nothing.
To be fair, it wasn't me who mentioned 30 or 20 limits. Personally as a cyclist I would far rather motor vehicles passed me as quick as reasonably possible, not edging past at only a few mph faster than me. I'm not familiar with the location, but there are plenty of rural roads with NSL where cyclists and motorists coexist. But most of them don't have a gert motorway right alongside to attract the speed merchants.

Again, what I say here is theoretical as I don't know the location, but perhaps a more effective way of dealing with motor traffic would be to remove through traffic. Block the road off for motor vehicles at selected points, but with room for cyclists to pass through, and without actually restricting access to any of the old road for drivers who have business there.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 20:18
To be fair, it wasn't me who mentioned 30 or 20 limits. Personally as a cyclist I would far rather motor vehicles passed me as quick as reasonably possible, not edging past at only a few mph faster than me. I'm not familiar with the location, but there are plenty of rural roads with NSL where cyclists and motorists coexist. But most of them don't have a gert motorway right alongside to attract the speed merchants.

Again, what I say here is theoretical as I don't know the location, but perhaps a more effective way of dealing with motor traffic would be to remove through traffic. Block the road off for motor vehicles at selected points, but with room for cyclists to pass through, and without actually restricting access to any of the old road for drivers who have business there.
You cannot realistically do that as it is the local access road that traffic banned from motorways, such as tractors and trailers need to use.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by solocle »

KeithW wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 20:27
FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 20:18
To be fair, it wasn't me who mentioned 30 or 20 limits. Personally as a cyclist I would far rather motor vehicles passed me as quick as reasonably possible, not edging past at only a few mph faster than me. I'm not familiar with the location, but there are plenty of rural roads with NSL where cyclists and motorists coexist. But most of them don't have a gert motorway right alongside to attract the speed merchants.

Again, what I say here is theoretical as I don't know the location, but perhaps a more effective way of dealing with motor traffic would be to remove through traffic. Block the road off for motor vehicles at selected points, but with room for cyclists to pass through, and without actually restricting access to any of the old road for drivers who have business there.
You cannot realistically do that as it is the local access road that traffic banned from motorways, such as tractors and trailers need to use.
Whereas plenty of tractors wouldn't be affected by a 20 mph limit.
Capture4_1.JPG
And, yes, that is an NSL DC.
Capture4_1.JPG
Some rear footage of my own from on the A30.

The fastest category of non-motorway traffic that I can think of is learner drivers, and they can always swap seats if necessary.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by booshank »

The whole no pedestrians, learners etc is in my opinion a legacy of the 1950s when motorways were seen as a fantastic, futuristic but also scary new type of road.

Now I'm not saying that there would be any benefit in lifting the restrictions, but I really don't think the motorways would be overrun with horse drawn carts, cyclists, pedestrians etc if they were. I don't see any evidence of it being a major problem on motorway-like all purpose roads. Presumably there is nothing legally stopping you from cycling or walking along the A27 north of Portsmouth but I'd be surprised if any significant number of people do, or if the odd one did it wouldn't be the end of the world. Even somewhere like the southern end of the Avon Ring road I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian.

Road geeks seem to love getting wrapped up in the legalities of motorways, but I think the practicalities are a lot less dramatic than they are made out.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by DanT97 »

booshank wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 23:33 The whole no pedestrians, learners etc is in my opinion a legacy of the 1950s when motorways were seen as a fantastic, futuristic but also scary new type of road.

Now I'm not saying that there would be any benefit in lifting the restrictions, but I really don't think the motorways would be overrun with horse drawn carts, cyclists, pedestrians etc if they were. I don't see any evidence of it being a major problem on motorway-like all purpose roads. Presumably there is nothing legally stopping you from cycling or walking along the A27 north of Portsmouth but I'd be surprised if any significant number of people do, or if the odd one did it wouldn't be the end of the world. Even somewhere like the southern end of the Avon Ring road I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian.

Road geeks seem to love getting wrapped up in the legalities of motorways, but I think the practicalities are a lot less dramatic than they are made out.
Well said. I’d have to be incredibly incompetent to allow myself to be killed by traffic. Probably because they’re so deafeningly noisy. I’ll mention at this point the desire to remind you of the width of hard shoulders which are always empty where I come from. Perhaps they should be turned into bike and pedestrian lanes. It would be a lot better than “smart” motorways, I would guess.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by FosseWay »

KeithW wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 20:27
FosseWay wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 20:18
To be fair, it wasn't me who mentioned 30 or 20 limits. Personally as a cyclist I would far rather motor vehicles passed me as quick as reasonably possible, not edging past at only a few mph faster than me. I'm not familiar with the location, but there are plenty of rural roads with NSL where cyclists and motorists coexist. But most of them don't have a gert motorway right alongside to attract the speed merchants.

Again, what I say here is theoretical as I don't know the location, but perhaps a more effective way of dealing with motor traffic would be to remove through traffic. Block the road off for motor vehicles at selected points, but with room for cyclists to pass through, and without actually restricting access to any of the old road for drivers who have business there.
You cannot realistically do that as it is the local access road that traffic banned from motorways, such as tractors and trailers need to use.
How many tractors need to drive a *long distance* along the same corridor as the motorway? The point with blocking local roads at certain points but not otherwise restricting access is that it doesn't really affect local access but it does prevent through traffic.

As to other categories of non-motorway user - if they're on two wheels, they can go the same route as the cyclists. If they're learners, they can swap seats.

Solutions to problems are rarely either 100% effective or 100% free from side effects. Too often, the mere presence of a side effect is enough to say "Whoa! We can't do that!" - in other words, it's used as an excuse not to get up off one's posterior.

Perhaps what they should have done when the motorway was complete is to retain the dual carriageway, but convert one half into an S2 for motor vehicles and keep (possibly one lane of) the other half for NMUs. This was actually what I thought they would do when the plans for the old A74 were discussed at the time, but either the plans changed or I misunderstood.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Al__S »

For Tractors and other agricultural equipment, it is possible to create filters that only high ground clearance four wheelers (and, yes, all two wheelers) can pass. That allows you to have a discontinuous service road (as far as vehicles that are allowed on motorways go) whilst having a continuous route for non motorway traffic.
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Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Conekicker »

DanT97 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 01:48
booshank wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 23:33 The whole no pedestrians, learners etc is in my opinion a legacy of the 1950s when motorways were seen as a fantastic, futuristic but also scary new type of road.

Now I'm not saying that there would be any benefit in lifting the restrictions, but I really don't think the motorways would be overrun with horse drawn carts, cyclists, pedestrians etc if they were. I don't see any evidence of it being a major problem on motorway-like all purpose roads. Presumably there is nothing legally stopping you from cycling or walking along the A27 north of Portsmouth but I'd be surprised if any significant number of people do, or if the odd one did it wouldn't be the end of the world. Even somewhere like the southern end of the Avon Ring road I've never seen a cyclist or pedestrian.

Road geeks seem to love getting wrapped up in the legalities of motorways, but I think the practicalities are a lot less dramatic than they are made out.
Well said. I’d have to be incredibly incompetent to allow myself to be killed by traffic. Probably because they’re so deafeningly noisy. I’ll mention at this point the desire to remind you of the width of hard shoulders which are always empty where I come from. Perhaps they should be turned into bike and pedestrian lanes. It would be a lot better than “smart” motorways, I would guess.
So you can out run an HGV with a blowout that swerves onto the hardshoulder can you? No, I can assure you the hard shoulders where you come from are not "always" empty.

You are clearly insufficiently aware of what happens on motorways, even where you come from. You've previously said you won't comment further on this thread. Please don't hesitate to do what you have said you wouldn't do.
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