Pedestrians on Motorways

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Locked
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5705
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by RichardA35 »

Please be mindful of the SMT's message earlier in this topic and be respectful to other users and the posting guidelines.
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by jervi »

DanT97 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 20:45
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 22:23
DanT97 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 21:12At this point, I have to say, thank god I’m Scottish. Our country is gloriously free from HEs madness and it is a land of vast openness where wilderness is still dominant. Clearly our roads are better in any case.
What madness are you talking about? And what does the amount of wilderness in Scotland have to do with anything? :roll:
I am, of course, talking about “smart” motorways. Also I don’t approve of other HE mainstays, such as concrete central reservations (grass with a metal barrier is my preference), getting rid of hard shoulders, and an over complicated structure in general.
Concreate vehicle restraint systems are much better than metal or wire ones in almost everyway. And you can't really put a concreate barrier onto or into dirt.
Concreate barriers deflect vehicles better, don't have to be replaced whenever a vehicle hits one, don't rust and generally require less maintenance while doing a better job at preventing cross carriageway collisions. Of course they cost more to initially install, but they save money and lives in the long run.

Dual carriageways with a concrete barrier, no dirt and grass looks modern and sleek to me. Meanwhile grass and a steel barrier looks like its from the 70s, cheap and dirty. Plus if a vehicle would end up tires in the central reserve (for whatever reason) it would throw up a load of dirt onto the carriageway and more likely to lose control of the vehicle, while paved to the barrier would just result in the vehicle being deflected back into the carriageway after getting a scrape.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 312!8i6656 < https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 384!8i8192

The only downside is visibility.

I'll agree with you on how stupidly over engineered our overhead signs and gantries are thou
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8990
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by wrinkly »

DanT97
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 18:04
Location: Cumnock, Ayrshire

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by DanT97 »

jervi wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 21:12
DanT97 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 20:45
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 22:23
What madness are you talking about? And what does the amount of wilderness in Scotland have to do with anything? :roll:
I am, of course, talking about “smart” motorways. Also I don’t approve of other HE mainstays, such as concrete central reservations (grass with a metal barrier is my preference), getting rid of hard shoulders, and an over complicated structure in general.
Concreate vehicle restraint systems are much better than metal or wire ones in almost everyway. And you can't really put a concreate barrier onto or into dirt.
Concreate barriers deflect vehicles better, don't have to be replaced whenever a vehicle hits one, don't rust and generally require less maintenance while doing a better job at preventing cross carriageway collisions. Of course they cost more to initially install, but they save money and lives in the long run.

Dual carriageways with a concrete barrier, no dirt and grass looks modern and sleek to me. Meanwhile grass and a steel barrier looks like its from the 70s, cheap and dirty. Plus if a vehicle would end up tires in the central reserve (for whatever reason) it would throw up a load of dirt onto the carriageway and more likely to lose control of the vehicle, while paved to the barrier would just result in the vehicle being deflected back into the carriageway after getting a scrape.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 312!8i6656 < https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 384!8i8192

The only downside is visibility.

I'll agree with you on how stupidly over engineered our overhead signs and gantries are thou
Let us not forget that I believe in nature and greenery, and a grass central reservation has that in spades. Metal barriers are also more elastic and can therefore absorb the impact a little bit better. I always feel that concrete is rubbish and far too brutalist and industrial for my taste. That’s why grass and metal is better.

It is also a known fact that the weirdos of HE are quite keen on rubbish gantries that are not good. Everyone knows that Glasgow has the best gantries around and HE just don’t compare.
T97 - Glencoe to Connell

The artist formerly known as Penguin2014
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by c2R »

DanT97 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 23:53 It is also a known fact that the weirdos of HE are quite keen on rubbish gantries that are not good. Everyone knows that Glasgow has the best gantries around and HE just don’t compare.
Really? Have MS4s been rolled across the entire Scottish network recently then? Having MS1s showing '40' for for miles on the A74(M)/M74 really isn't useful if you've no idea what hazard you're looking out for, for example. Having information such as "stranded vehicle", "animals on road", "report of pedestrians", and "road closed at J16" are all far more useful....
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 12031
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

DanT97 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 23:53
jervi wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 21:12
DanT97 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 20:45

I am, of course, talking about “smart” motorways. Also I don’t approve of other HE mainstays, such as concrete central reservations (grass with a metal barrier is my preference), getting rid of hard shoulders, and an over complicated structure in general.
Concreate vehicle restraint systems are much better than metal or wire ones in almost everyway. And you can't really put a concreate barrier onto or into dirt.
Concreate barriers deflect vehicles better, don't have to be replaced whenever a vehicle hits one, don't rust and generally require less maintenance while doing a better job at preventing cross carriageway collisions. Of course they cost more to initially install, but they save money and lives in the long run.

Dual carriageways with a concrete barrier, no dirt and grass looks modern and sleek to me. Meanwhile grass and a steel barrier looks like its from the 70s, cheap and dirty. Plus if a vehicle would end up tires in the central reserve (for whatever reason) it would throw up a load of dirt onto the carriageway and more likely to lose control of the vehicle, while paved to the barrier would just result in the vehicle being deflected back into the carriageway after getting a scrape.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 312!8i6656 < https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04886 ... 384!8i8192

The only downside is visibility.

I'll agree with you on how stupidly over engineered our overhead signs and gantries are thou
Let us not forget that I believe in nature and greenery, and a grass central reservation has that in spades. Metal barriers are also more elastic and can therefore absorb the impact a little bit better. I always feel that concrete is rubbish and far too brutalist and industrial for my taste. That’s why grass and metal is better.

It is also a known fact that the weirdos of HE are quite keen on rubbish gantries that are not good. Everyone knows that Glasgow has the best gantries around and HE just don’t compare.
I prefer continuous concrete central barrier for the simple reason it reduces the risk of an HGV cross-over - in my view that outweighs all the other considerations.

Oh, and I don't like Glasgow motorways - too much weaving needed for non-locals - basically the junctions are too close together, very noticeable when driving something with low acceleration.
Lifelong motorhead
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Bryn666 »

This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
djw1981
Member
Posts: 1803
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 00:07
Location: Falkirk

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by djw1981 »

DanT97 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 22:06 I have read your interesting points. I wish to note that walking on a verge would be laughably easy for me, since I go hillwalking sometimes. I also walk 10 miles for fun so, I’m pretty damn fit. Also I fail to see the logic in applying these rules to extremely rural motorways in Scotland, where there can be found miles of room. Obviously you guys are thinking of your English “smart” motorways with all their bells and whistles. I’m talking about the rural M74 with miles of hills and valleys.
Nearly all the rural M74 / A74(M) has a parallel route, following almost the same line, specifically designed for walkers, cycling etc, so the question is more why provide 2 routes when segregation by speed is possible.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

djw1981 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 15:57
Nearly all the rural M74 / A74(M) has a parallel route, following almost the same line, specifically designed for walkers, cycling etc, so the question is more why provide 2 routes when segregation by speed is possible.

Well the A74(M)/M74 certainly has a parallel route - B7076 but for the most part its the original A74 and was definitely not designed for walkers and cyclists.
User avatar
Debaser
Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 16:57

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Debaser »

KeithW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 18:48
djw1981 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 15:57
Nearly all the rural M74 / A74(M) has a parallel route, following almost the same line, specifically designed for walkers, cycling etc, so the question is more why provide 2 routes when segregation by speed is possible.

Well the A74(M)/M74 certainly has a parallel route - B7076 but for the most part its the original A74 and was definitely not designed for walkers and cyclists.
Of course. Such is the inability of the average British engineer to design properly for walking and cycling, that even here, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory. Try getting a laden touring bike (presumably the user group the designers had in mind) through that gap.
User avatar
FosseWay
Assistant Site Manager
Posts: 19621
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 22:26
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by FosseWay »

Debaser wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:03 Of course. Such is the inability of the average British engineer to design properly for walking and cycling, that even here, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory. Try getting a laden touring bike (presumably the user group the designers had in mind) through that gap.
:facepalm:

For a start, the cycle path should have priority over turning traffic, like in civilised countries.

But even leaving aside that general point - and I realise you can't necessarily apply a different priority here when everywhere else in the UK has something else - those barriers are unnecessary. What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with a give way sign and appropriate road markings? What is that side road anyway? It doesn't look like a through road to anywhere. What is the usage level of the junction for motor vehicles?

They're unnecessary. But they are also dangerous, as evidenced by the aftermarket application of black and yellow tape. When you're driving along in a car on a normal highway, you do not expect your way to be physically blocked by solid metal bars that will put you in hospital if you hit them. Indeed, we go out of our way to ensure that objects erected *off* the roadway are as forgiving as possible if hit by errant vehicles. But we stick iron piping just at handlebar height across cycle paths. Huh?
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Stevie D
Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Stevie D »

Conekicker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 23:24Following the wilderness argument to it's logical(?) conclusion, if there's so much wilderness to walk in, there's no need for pedestrians to walk along the motorway surely? :roll:
In some parts of Scotland, a road is called "the motorway" if it has a dashed line down the middle 😉
User avatar
Debaser
Member
Posts: 2219
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 16:57

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Debaser »

FosseWay wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:17
Debaser wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:03 Of course. Such is the inability of the average British engineer to design properly for walking and cycling, that even here, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory. Try getting a laden touring bike (presumably the user group the designers had in mind) through that gap.
:facepalm:

For a start, the cycle path should have priority over turning traffic, like in civilised countries.

But even leaving aside that general point - and I realise you can't necessarily apply a different priority here when everywhere else in the UK has something else - those barriers are unnecessary. What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with a give way sign and appropriate road markings? What is that side road anyway? It doesn't look like a through road to anywhere. What is the usage level of the junction for motor vehicles?

They're unnecessary. But they are also dangerous, as evidenced by the aftermarket application of black and yellow tape. When you're driving along in a car on a normal highway, you do not expect your way to be physically blocked by solid metal bars that will put you in hospital if you hit them. Indeed, we go out of our way to ensure that objects erected *off* the roadway are as forgiving as possible if hit by errant vehicles. But we stick iron piping just at handlebar height across cycle paths. Huh?
It's actually worse than that. Streetview hasn't been updated for a while, but since it last was an access to a windfarm has been created south of that access, which places two small (600mm-ish) black bollards directly in the middle of the two marked lanes on the cycle track. To ensure absolute safety, the one on the northbound lane (i.e. heading towards the access) has a cute little give-way sign mounted on it. Easily the smallest give-way sign I've ever seen. The Stage 3 road safety audit did point out that this layout was absurd and a collision risk. However, this was the highway authority's standard layout - god help them - so it stayed in.
DanT97
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 18:04
Location: Cumnock, Ayrshire

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by DanT97 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
If anything is a wind up, it is the “smart” motorways nonsense. Besides, where I come from we appreciate nature and like to have plenty of it.
T97 - Glencoe to Connell

The artist formerly known as Penguin2014
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

Debaser wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 19:03
Of course. Such is the inability of the average British engineer to design properly for walking and cycling, that even here, defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory. Try getting a laden touring bike (presumably the user group the designers had in mind) through that gap.
You are talking about a road that was designed by Thomas Telford in the 19th-century as coaching route between Glasgow and Carlisle. It was designed it 1814-15 and opened in 1825, it may have been remiss of him not to cater for bicycles but he assuredly knew about pedestrians :)
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Conekicker »

DanT97 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 20:02
Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
If anything is a wind up, it is the “smart” motorways nonsense. Besides, where I come from we appreciate nature and like to have plenty of it.
So why walk along a motorway then?
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by KeithW »

DanT97 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 20:02
Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
If anything is a wind up, it is the “smart” motorways nonsense. Besides, where I come from we appreciate nature and like to have plenty of it.
Its a good job you don't have any Smart Motorways then isn't it. I am sure if you asked that nice Ms Sturgeon she would plough up the M77 for you.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16909
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Chris5156 »

DanT97 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 20:02Besides, where I come from we appreciate nature and like to have plenty of it.
Where I come from we know that arrogance won’t endear you to anyone.
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Conekicker »

Bryn666 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 09:07 This entire thread has got to be a wind up.
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on ( :roll: ) the word "troll" comes to mind.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
User avatar
Lockwood
Member
Posts: 3185
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 14:44
Location: Liphook

Re: Pedestrians on Motorways

Post by Lockwood »

Wow...
Reading this thread is making my brain hurt.

I would say it was the massive overrun last night making my mind play tricks, but I saw some of this thread before then.
Locked