Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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rhyds
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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wrinkly wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 18:30
rhyds wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 15:40
Behold the fury of HMS Rhododendron!
Quite appropriate really, as rhodedendron is classified as an invasive species. A bit like having an HMS Japanese Knotweed.
Quick! Call on HMS Couch Grass!
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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:idea: HMS Triffid? HMS Venus Fly Trap?
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KeithW
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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marconaf wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 16:26
In fairness, the Argentinian view of Sea Dart, based on them having 2 ships equipped with it, was that any aircraft at medium or high level approaching UK forces defended by it, would be shot down long before they could attack.

Hence why all their missions were at ultra low level in 1982, that meant they were at the extreme end of their range, had limited carrying capacity and had virtually no time to accurately target our ships or forces and certainly no time to engage our fighters. As a result they were unable to use their (arguably superior) air power and our fighters were able to attack from positions of advantage.

So Sea Dart acheived a huge amount actually, albeit passively, by denying them effective use of their air power - and that proved decisive.

Sorry - contirbuted to off topic, but then some Tory wanting to rename the A1 needs moving on from anyway :-)
Well the Skyhawks, Daggers and Mirages could fly most of the way at medium level but they were always going to be short on fuel as the range of the A-4 was only 1000 miles and they were flying carrying external stores. The type 42's were unable to stop the Canberra's attacking at night managing to shoot down only 1 of them. The fire control systems were so poor they struggled to track more than 2 targets. In the end the Type 42's had to be escorted by the type 22 frigates which provided close air cover. They were the only ships which had the only modern air defence fit. The Type 21 Amazon class frigates performed poorly having been based on a Vosper design built for export. The terrible AA fit wasn't helped by the missile system being the useless Seacat which was actually a modified Australian antitank missile. As for the gun armament just 2 x 20 mm Oerlikons was simply pathetic and of course the lightweight aluminium superstructure and extensive use of plastics meant any fire would burn them to the waterline. I knew someone who served on a Type 21 and so poor was the AA fit they resorted to fitting General Purpose Machine Guns to the railings of the vessel.

In many ways the old Leander Class Frigates and County Class ships were a safer ship to be aboard, they used old fashioned construction and had good gun fits and of course HMS Andromeda was fitted with Sea Wolf. The County Class had Sea Slug which was so useless as an AA missile they use up the rounds doing shore bombardment. That said they had a powerful gun armament and could survive hits that sank more modern vessels. After being paid off by the RN the County Class HMS Antrim was sold to the Chilean Navy who ripped out the Sea Slug installation and replaced it with the Israeli Barak AA missile system and a modern CIWS system.

When it came to air defence the star was the Sea Harrier using the latest AIM-9 Sidewinder with an all aspect seeker. The combination of a modern radar and latest missiles made them lethal which is why the Argentines had to take to a sea level attack strategy.

There was a major panic when it became obvious how poorly the RN AA systems had performed and the shipborne AA fit was improved by mounting a CIWS system initially using the 20 mm Phalanx gun. The type 21's were quickly phased out as not only were they poorly equipped but the combination of a ferrous hull and light alloy superstructure did not age well. The Type 23 which embodied the lessons of the war were much better vessels with a modern 3D radar, the Sea Ceptor VLS AA missile and powerful CIWS fit have had significantly longer service life.
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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the cheesecake man wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 20:02 :idea: HMS Triffid? HMS Venus Fly Trap?
HMS Bindweed? HMS Rosebay Willowherb?
Beware of the trickster on the roof
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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HMS Giant Hogweed.

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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

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A303Chris wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 13:43 What no one has picked up, is the article says 75 years on the throne next year.

Well the coronation was 1952 and 2022 minus 1952 is 70 years when I went to school!!!!
The coronation was on 2 June 1953 - George VI died on 6 February 1952, so you are right about HM being on the throne for 70 years next year, but it will not be 70 years since the coronation. Moreover, she has been the longest reigning monarch in Europe (or maybe the world) who never needed a regent. (Louis XIV, who reigned for 72 years, ascended the throne at the age of 5 and, under French Law, came of age when he was 13, so he reigned without a regent for 64 years).
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

Post by marconaf »

KeithW wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 20:17
marconaf wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 16:26
In fairness, the Argentinian view of Sea Dart, based on them having 2 ships equipped with it, was that any aircraft at medium or high level approaching UK forces defended by it, would be shot down long before they could attack.

Hence why all their missions were at ultra low level in 1982, that meant they were at the extreme end of their range, had limited carrying capacity and had virtually no time to accurately target our ships or forces and certainly no time to engage our fighters. As a result they were unable to use their (arguably superior) air power and our fighters were able to attack from positions of advantage.

So Sea Dart acheived a huge amount actually, albeit passively, by denying them effective use of their air power - and that proved decisive.

Sorry - contirbuted to off topic, but then some Tory wanting to rename the A1 needs moving on from anyway :-)
Well the Skyhawks, Daggers and Mirages could fly most of the way at medium level but they were always going to be short on fuel as the range of the A-4 was only 1000 miles and they were flying carrying external stores. The type 42's were unable to stop the Canberra's attacking at night managing to shoot down only 1 of them. The fire control systems were so poor they struggled to track more than 2 targets. In the end the Type 42's had to be escorted by the type 22 frigates which provided close air cover. They were the only ships which had the only modern air defence fit. The Type 21 Amazon class frigates performed poorly having been based on a Vosper design built for export. The terrible AA fit wasn't helped by the missile system being the useless Seacat which was actually a modified Australian antitank missile. As for the gun armament just 2 x 20 mm Oerlikons was simply pathetic and of course the lightweight aluminium superstructure and extensive use of plastics meant any fire would burn them to the waterline. I knew someone who served on a Type 21 and so poor was the AA fit they resorted to fitting General Purpose Machine Guns to the railings of the vessel.

In many ways the old Leander Class Frigates and County Class ships were a safer ship to be aboard, they used old fashioned construction and had good gun fits and of course HMS Andromeda was fitted with Sea Wolf. The County Class had Sea Slug which was so useless as an AA missile they use up the rounds doing shore bombardment. That said they had a powerful gun armament and could survive hits that sank more modern vessels. After being paid off by the RN the County Class HMS Antrim was sold to the Chilean Navy who ripped out the Sea Slug installation and replaced it with the Israeli Barak AA missile system and a modern CIWS system.

When it came to air defence the star was the Sea Harrier using the latest AIM-9 Sidewinder with an all aspect seeker. The combination of a modern radar and latest missiles made them lethal which is why the Argentines had to take to a sea level attack strategy.

There was a major panic when it became obvious how poorly the RN AA systems had performed and the shipborne AA fit was improved by mounting a CIWS system initially using the 20 mm Phalanx gun. The type 21's were quickly phased out as not only were they poorly equipped but the combination of a ferrous hull and light alloy superstructure did not age well. The Type 23 which embodied the lessons of the war were much better vessels with a modern 3D radar, the Sea Ceptor VLS AA missile and powerful CIWS fit have had significantly longer service life.
Hmm, a few errors there.

Aregentinian primary sources (indeed all sources!) identify Type 42 & Sea Dart as why they flew low level and used terain masking. They came to this assessment having rapidly flown a load of attack profiles against their own 42s once the Argentine Army/Navy had deigned to tell them the plan had gone awry and could the Air Force (the junior element of the Junta and hitherto excluded from the Malvinas campaign so the Army&Navy could share the “glory”), kindly now sink the oncoming British fleet and save all their arses.

The Sea Harrier FRS1 with Blue Fox radar had very limited volume search ability (indeed limited radar capability at all - being massively improved in the post Falklands FA2 model with Blue Vixen brought into service in the 1990s, itself a progenitor of the Typhoon’s subsequent system) and hence their presence or lack of would not make much difference to an attack profile - indeed if they were the only threat then a medium/high approach would have been used as even the A-4s would have an advantage there, let alone the Mirages/Daggers who could then comfortably have outrun them. The Argentines were on the deck because they feared Sea Dart. Even if that assessment was wrong because Sea Dart would have failed (noting its successes were against targets in exactly that engagement envelope) - the impact was still hugely beneficial. Even a low-medium approach (c.10,000ft) would have made a huge improvement in the Argentine ability to accurately complete an gun/bomb/rocket attack - whereas at just a few 100ft it was sheer luck/incredible skill to hit anything noting they had the well known fuzing problems also due to the need to add a delay. They certainly came to respect and even fear the Sea Harriers, but this was after and cause and effect should not be confused.

This all saved many ships and 1000s of lives and neutered their otherwise superior air power, enabling the UK to acheive sufficient “control of the air” where and when needed which in turn enabled the UK forces to approach, land on, and retake the Islands.


Clearly their aircraft transited from Argentina at medium level, or else they’d never got there at all!

The Sea Harriers were vectored by fighter directors aboard the Type 42s as they had the most modern comms and air picture management ability to do this (in conjunction with Invincible). This is why a 42 was kept close to the islands, although the 965/992 radar combo struggled over land hence their vulnerability and the Type 22/42 combo which proved of mixed use as Sea Wolf had its own foibles as did the 967 radar on the Type 22. Again, complicated by the skill of the Argentine pilots whose courage at “pressing”, despite some horrendous losses, is still awe inspiring. They truly had little idea of what was waiting for them, almost no on target support and every day fewer came home.

The all aspect “Lima” Sidewinder was a great asset, gifted by the US, but analysis showed all the successful shots were well within the successfull engagement envelope of the legacy “Golf” variant. This reflected that it was almost impossible to position sea or air based radars to pick up attacking aircraft prior to arrival, and so the classic “flaming datum” was the primary indication and along with their exit route, was how the fighters were then vectored, hence mostly the Sea Harriers attacked after egress (akin to tail chase), and were able to do so as they could sit up higher waiting and then dive in. Less than ideal to those just attacked, but one less to come back.

The Type 21s were retired early as part of the post Cold War peace dividend. They were already getting on for 20 years old and had no capacity for modernisation, plus major modernisations of the Leanders had proved exorbitant. An early desire to replace the ancient Sea Cat on them foundered due to topweight issues (Sea Wolf was a fing heavy system!).

The warships that took hits did their distraction job well - the transports and merchants escaped (bar Bluff Cove) and 100s and 1000s of lives were protected.

Sea Slug was a 1946? concept, and there is some doubt as to whether it was ever actually fully commissioned as issues during further testing in the 70s seem to have effectively been papered over with Sea Dart arriving.

Phalanx is still in operational usage today, it has outlasted the arguably originally better Dutch Goalkeeper system also acquired post 1982 due to continuous USN development.

Type 23s were built c.1990-2000 with VL Sea Wolf, an improved version of the 1982 system fitted to the Type 22s. They were built with the same Type 996 3-D radar backfitted to Type 42s and which corrected many of the 1982 radars issues. They were re-equipped from c.2015 with Artisan radar (Type 997) and the Sea Ceptor missile.

These plus the Sea Viper system in the Type 45s that replaced the Type 42s from c.2006, seem to have finally matured the missile based air defence system and are as good as (we think) they are precisely due to the mass of lessons from 1982 and the weaknesses of the systems fielded then. Similarly ship design, although of course none have been combat tested...


Back on the A1, fun trivia - the long, truck capable, north-south tunnel in (ok, under) Gibraltar is fashioned after the A1, each successive set of chambers (for HQs, accomodation, stores etc.) off it is named after sequential towns as you go up the A1 - Peterborough, Grantham etc.
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Re: Tory MP - rename A1 as the Queen's Highway

Post by the cheesecake man »

marconaf wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 23:07 Back on the A1, fun trivia - the long, truck capable, north-south tunnel in (ok, under) Gibraltar is fashioned after the A1, each successive set of chambers (for HQs, accomodation, stores etc.) off it is named after sequential towns as you go up the A1 - Peterborough, Grantham etc.
So it's time to return the compliment and name the A1 The Gibraltar Highway with key features renamed Macaque Roundabout, Death On The Rock Interchange etc.? :lol: :coat:
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