You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

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marconaf
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by marconaf »

Fenlander wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:15 What’s the purpose of the give way markings if not to create a give way scenario? The other car is already in the junction so the BMW should give way, and certainly shouldn’t try to wrong side both the approach to the roundabout or the actual centre blob itself.
Isn’t the BMW the “other car already in the Jn”?

The camera car to me starts a long way back so the car pulling out (BMW?) doesnt seem unreasonable until the excess speed is factored in - so the driver of the car pulling out called that wrong, but the core fault is the camera car’s speed?
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by DB617 »

The problem is, this is an example of the limits of defensive driving. You can approach minis carefully and look to give way to approaching vehicles from the right, but you can only anticipate vehicles approaching up to a certain reasonable speed (say 20-30mph). If we all approached give way lines and gave way to any traffic in sight - on the off chance they may be driving dangerously - well there would be very little traffic flow and roundabouts would be an even worse source of traffic. We'd essentially all be driving like learners on their first time in town.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by AndyB »

Yep.

The key distinction between single and double give way lines is that double give way lines carry a strict liability offence. Single give way lines require careless driving, DC&A or dangerous driving to be proven.

The intention of a mini roundabout appears to be to give a vehicle approaching from a side road a better opportunity of getting out. Doesn’t work that well if it’s a four-way junction, but it does for three-way junctions, and modern mini roundabouts include deflection for the straight on route. Certainly, when I’ve arrived at a busy three-arm mini-roundabout at the same time as vehicles on the other two arms, there has been nothing that can’t be sorted out by eye contact and a spot of courtesy (failing which, if the other two vehicles can’t agree who’s going first, go yourself very carefully and settle the matter)

The obligation on someone crossing the give way line at a mini roundabout is to ensure that they can clear the junction before a vehicle approaching from the right reaches you. That does including making sure of an approaching car’s speed, but if they are accelerating...
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trickstat
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

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AndyB wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 13:05 Yep.

The key distinction between single and double give way lines is that double give way lines carry a strict liability offence. Single give way lines require careless driving, DC&A or dangerous driving to be proven.

The intention of a mini roundabout appears to be to give a vehicle approaching from a side road a better opportunity of getting out. Doesn’t work that well if it’s a four-way junction, but it does for three-way junctions, and modern mini roundabouts should include deflection for the straight on route. Certainly, when I’ve arrived at a busy three-arm mini-roundabout at the same time as vehicles on the other two arms, there has been nothing that can’t be sorted out by eye contact and a spot of courtesy (failing which, if the other two vehicles can’t agree who’s going first, go yourself very carefully and settle the matter)

The obligation on someone crossing the give way line at a mini roundabout is to ensure that they can clear the junction before a vehicle approaching from the right reaches you. That does including making sure of an approaching car’s speed, but if they are accelerating...
FTFY.

For me it is the ease with which drivers can take some mini-roundabouts whilst barely slowing down which has caused most of the confusion. When the traffic is moving more slowly they are a more straightforward proposition.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by AndyB »

Fair enough - all new installs I’ve seen in the last ten or so years have had deflection though.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by FosseWay »

trickstat wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 13:23 For me it is the ease with which drivers can take some mini-roundabouts whilst barely slowing down which has caused most of the confusion. When the traffic is moving more slowly they are a more straightforward proposition.
Which is why for me mini-roundabouts should be a tool in relatively low speed environments. If the limit is over 30 - I'd probably actually say if the limit is 30 or over, at least on roads where 30 is a realistic and safe speed and not just the posted limit - then mini-roundabouts aren't the best option IMV.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by jgharston »

Yesterday there was a smash on the mini-roundabout at the junction of Sandsend Road/Love Lane/White Bridge Road (A174/B1416) on the western edge of Whitby. A vehicle heading west went straight across without slowing and was slammed into/slammed into somebody entering from the side. It's been reported "people don't know there's a roundabout there" despite three signs:
An advanced direction sign with a mini-roundabout symbol at the junction
100yds later a triangle "roundabout" sign plated with "REDUCE SPEED"
And a blue "roundabout" sign on entry to the roundabout itself.

I'm not sure how you can not notice you're entering a roundabout there, but just a week ago I left town that way and had to chuck out the anchor when somebody heading east decided to swing round and turn south without indicating.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Bryn666 »

FosseWay wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 14:01
trickstat wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 13:23 For me it is the ease with which drivers can take some mini-roundabouts whilst barely slowing down which has caused most of the confusion. When the traffic is moving more slowly they are a more straightforward proposition.
Which is why for me mini-roundabouts should be a tool in relatively low speed environments. If the limit is over 30 - I'd probably actually say if the limit is 30 or over, at least on roads where 30 is a realistic and safe speed and not just the posted limit - then mini-roundabouts aren't the best option IMV.
They are massively discouraged on roads with speed limits higher than 30 - although some examples do exist.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Vierwielen »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34 Maybe I am missing something here but I struggle to see that there is any ambiguity.

The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?

I can imagine some ambiguity if there is a case where it is marginal as to "who crossed the line first" but in this case the BMW was almost off the roundabout before the other car even entered. In fact I would criticise them for being too hesitant and not just keeping going and getting out of the way that way.

Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?
I agree with you fully. If you follow the letter of the Highway Code and want to go straight on at a cross-roads with a mini-roundabout thrown in the middle, you should signal "right" as you enter the roundabout, and then "left as soon as you pass the first exit. Now if you signaled as though it were a junction, you would not signal if you were going straight, otherwise what is the difference between a mini-roundabout and an ordinary roundabout?
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Big L »

Vierwielen wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 21:11 ....If you follow the letter of the Highway Code and want to go straight on at a cross-roads with a mini-roundabout thrown in the middle, you should signal "right" as you enter the roundabout, and then "left as soon as you pass the first exit....
No no no no. Indicating "right" at a roundabout is used for, oh I don't know, turning right.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 21:11 If you follow the letter of the Highway Code and want to go straight on at a cross-roads with a mini-roundabout thrown in the middle, you should signal "right" as you enter the roundabout, and then "left as soon as you pass the first exit.
Seriously? How to confuse the <removed> out of other peeps - and TBH there is no time on mini-roundabouts to change your indication!

It is, mind you, a pet hate of mine when drivers are still indicating right as they exit a proper roundabout...

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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

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Big L wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 22:23
Vierwielen wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 21:11 ....If you follow the letter of the Highway Code and want to go straight on at a cross-roads with a mini-roundabout thrown in the middle, you should signal "right" as you enter the roundabout, and then "left as soon as you pass the first exit....
No no no no. Indicating "right" at a roundabout is used for, oh I don't know, turning right.
Agreed. The right turn indicator at a roundabout shouldn’t be used just to mean “not turning left”. It doesn’t mean that anywhere else.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by marconaf »

Big L wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 22:23 Rule185IMG.jpg
This throws up the old chestnut of what entrance lane for “straight ahead”.

The image suggests left hand, but that means two directions are using one lane (left also) and one is using the right lane which would be far from appropriate at many locations due to relative flows etc.

The actual code text is
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
Which just specifies “appropriate” whereas for left and right it specifies use left and right respectively.

The Highway Code seems to leave it to judgement based on size of roundabout, relative traffic flows and so on ( notwithstanding any markings etc taking precedence). I personally frequently use the right hand lane for straight on where there is space on the roundabout (and at exit), especially to pass slow moving vehicles.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Bryn666 »

marconaf wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 18:49
Big L wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 22:23 Rule185IMG.jpg
This throws up the old chestnut of what entrance lane for “straight ahead”.

The image suggests left hand, but that means two directions are using one lane (left also) and one is using the right lane which would be far from appropriate at many locations due to relative flows etc.

The actual code text is
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
Which just specifies “appropriate” whereas for left and right it specifies use left and right respectively.

The Highway Code seems to leave it to judgement based on size of roundabout, relative traffic flows and so on ( notwithstanding any markings etc taking precedence). I personally frequently use the right hand lane for straight on where there is space on the roundabout (and at exit), especially to pass slow moving vehicles.
Bigger roundabouts are good for that - but I've always said exercise extreme caution at smaller ones with bad markings because left hand lane traffic has a horrible tendency to straight line through which puts them in a collision course with you for no real fault of your own.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by marconaf »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 18:53
marconaf wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 18:49
Big L wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 22:23 Rule185IMG.jpg
This throws up the old chestnut of what entrance lane for “straight ahead”.

The image suggests left hand, but that means two directions are using one lane (left also) and one is using the right lane which would be far from appropriate at many locations due to relative flows etc.

The actual code text is
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
Which just specifies “appropriate” whereas for left and right it specifies use left and right respectively.

The Highway Code seems to leave it to judgement based on size of roundabout, relative traffic flows and so on ( notwithstanding any markings etc taking precedence). I personally frequently use the right hand lane for straight on where there is space on the roundabout (and at exit), especially to pass slow moving vehicles.
Bigger roundabouts are good for that - but I've always said exercise extreme caution at smaller ones with bad markings because left hand lane traffic has a horrible tendency to straight line through which puts them in a collision course with you for no real fault of your own.
Yes quite - although smaller ones even if there are two lanes in the entrance there is probably not the space at the apex of the roundabout for two to pass (there might be but few actually take the perimiter as often that’s full of stones and glass anyway). I’d assume in the case of a collision that the “overtaking vehicle” in a sense would be to blame.

What interested me about this was that I was on the receiving end of a road rage incident a while back from a chap incensed that I had “overtaken” him doing this, (on a big roundabout!), which was weird as I had no recollection of going past anyone, simply using the right hand to take a 1 o’clock exit (wi to exists at 9 and 3 also) and whilst one often knows when one has “cut it close / made a mistake” I’d had no sense anyone was even nearby and was pretty certain of that. They were very upset that I’d been in the wrong lane and so “got ahead” of them (which I’m not sure I had and wondered if they’d mistaken me). But the idea of left lane for left and straight on does seem ingrained for some - whilst as above the highway code is not definite and it wouldnt make sense to define that anyway (1 lane fixed for 2 directions, 1 lane for 1 regardless of flows).

Hey ho.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Micro The Maniac »

marconaf wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 00:14 Yes quite - although smaller ones even if there are two lanes in the entrance there is probably not the space at the apex of the roundabout for two to pass (there might be but few actually take the perimiter as often that’s full of stones and glass anyway). I’d assume in the case of a collision that the “overtaking vehicle” in a sense would be to blame.
And even when there are "lane markings" around the roundabout, a lot of drivers ignore them (especially from the left lane) and just cut the apex...

Mind you, even I have concerns about the lane markings here - that 90 degree bend in the middle lane is nigh on impossible to comply with!
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by trickstat »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 07:27
marconaf wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 00:14 Yes quite - although smaller ones even if there are two lanes in the entrance there is probably not the space at the apex of the roundabout for two to pass (there might be but few actually take the perimiter as often that’s full of stones and glass anyway). I’d assume in the case of a collision that the “overtaking vehicle” in a sense would be to blame.
And even when there are "lane markings" around the roundabout, a lot of drivers ignore them (especially from the left lane) and just cut the apex...

Mind you, even I have concerns about the lane markings here - that 90 degree bend in the middle lane is nigh on impossible to comply with!
I was driving the signalised roundabout beneath Junction 8 of the A1(M) yesterday and saw 2 successive cars drift from lane 1 to lane 2 as they passed beneath the motorway when both of them were taking the next exit towards Hitchin!
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

What about double mini roundabouts? I'm thinking of the ones that are on local roads, sometimes to slow through traffic down but have little separation between the two.

Once you have exited the first one there is very little time to indicate right for the second. In this case I tend to indicate for right prior to entering the first, as long as there is no right turn exit on the first, if you get my drift.

But it is confusing!
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