You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

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Bfivethousand
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You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Bfivethousand »

Every Sunday afternoon, around 5.30pm, I watch this week's compilation of assorted bumps, dings, misdemeanours and downright idiotic behaviour as caught on the UK Dash Cameras Youtube channel. Often, the cammers themselves are the main offenders.

Almost without fail, every week there is a clip where driver A fails to give way to driver B on a mini roundabout. Quite often, driver B happens to be the dashcammer and again, quite often, driver B is often shown to either approach the mini at an inappropriate speed or to negotiate the junction with contempt for the island itself.

A good example of what I am describing is in this clip from this week's episode, see the end of this post...

What disturbs me most about this sort of event (apart from the poor behaviour of the dashcammer) is the opinion of many viewers in the comments section that the other driver in this and many other clips - in this case the one that pulled on to the mini-roundabout straight into the path of the dashcammer - has done absolutely nothing wrong.

The view expressed by these commentators is that as the other car has entered the junction first, it then somehow assumes priority over the dashcammer who should consequently at that point be giving way to them! In such circumstances "priority to the right" only apparently applies if the other vehicle is itself also on the circulatory area. The same old ding-dong discussion flares up every week regarding the semantics of the Highway Code's advice. TSRGD and TSM Chapter 5 is often cited in discussion, however that only serves to expose the inconsistencies of, in particular, the former document in particular in terms of the subtle differences in meaning of the double dash give way (diag. 1003A) and mini-roundabout give way (diag. 1003.4) markings.

It concerns me though that this seems to be a very widely held view. It certaintly isn't the way I was taught to use a mini. Have I missed a memo somewhere in the last 30 years or so on the matter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwy24Ucj9yc&t=523s
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jervi
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by jervi »

Its quite a common issue I see all over the place. Especially noticeable on these dashcam channels when people make a situation out of nothing just to send the clip in and get 100,000s of people see how badly they drive.

Since passing my test in 2017 I've never gone right over a mini-roundabout or on the wrong side, however I did used to have my right wheel on it. Since watching videos by Ashley Neal on Youtube, I've made every effort now to actually drive correctly and rarely have even my right wheel touch the paint.

This is the most extreme example I've had in the past two weeks from this bicyclist who had zero idea on road positioning.
https://youtu.be/uegGT-xXa0E
This is just after going down quite a steel hill, he is a big lad so gravity assisted him more than me, so he overtook me, only for me to get stuck behind him on the flats while he exits the roundabout from the inside (unlike moving to the outside like me on the exit previous) and also going the complete wrong side of a mini-roundabout.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Micro The Maniac »

That said, many mini-roundabouts are poor choices, especially those that replace a T-junction. Even-more-so on a "main" road, where straight-ahead accounts for the majority of the traffic - and frequently drivers seem oblivious to the existence of the mini-roundabout.

The entrance to my estate has one such beastie... traffic turning into and out of the estate (especially right turns) do so at their own risk :(

But I would like to see the turning area (ie inside the "give way" lines) be treated as if a "yellow box" - ie do not enter unless you can exit.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by XC70 »

Maybe I am missing something here but I struggle to see that there is any ambiguity.

The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?

I can imagine some ambiguity if there is a case where it is marginal as to "who crossed the line first" but in this case the BMW was almost off the roundabout before the other car even entered. In fact I would criticise them for being too hesitant and not just keeping going and getting out of the way that way.

Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?

Not being obscure, just genuinely puzzled.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by XC70 »

jervi wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 22:21 Its quite a common issue I see all over the place. Especially noticeable on these dashcam channels when people make a situation out of nothing just to send the clip in and get 100,000s of people see how badly they drive.

Since passing my test in 2017 I've never gone right over a mini-roundabout or on the wrong side, however I did used to have my right wheel on it. Since watching videos by Ashley Neal on Youtube, I've made every effort now to actually drive correctly and rarely have even my right wheel touch the paint.

This is the most extreme example I've had in the past two weeks from this bicyclist who had zero idea on road positioning.
https://youtu.be/uegGT-xXa0E
This is just after going down quite a steel hill, he is a big lad so gravity assisted him more than me, so he overtook me, only for me to get stuck behind him on the flats while he exits the roundabout from the inside (unlike moving to the outside like me on the exit previous) and also going the complete wrong side of a mini-roundabout.
Wow! That white van was flying :D
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FosseWay
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by FosseWay »

Like the OP, I tend to look at these "driving fail" YouTube uploads every so often, and, like the OP, I often come to the conclusion that the biggest jerk is behind the camera. (To my perennial irritation as a cyclist, this applies to cyclist cammers as well, though not specifically in the context of mini-roundabouts.)

By that, I don't just mean that the cammer, by slowing or steering away, often could have defused or resolved a situation that is basically caused by someone else's lack of judgement, though that is often also true. I mean that the cammer goes out of their way to provoke conflict by accelerating where a sensible driver would brake or hold their speed, and/or by cutting the corner when going straight on or right, thereby crossing the white blob in a mini-roundabout. In other words, if they'd behaved as they should on the mini-roundabout, there wouldn't have been any conflict at all, not even a marginal case that can be solved by a bit of defensive driving from the cammer.

This kind of thing goes on all over the road network, of course, and it features disproportionately in dashcam vids on YouTube; bears also defecate in forests. But it's particularly problematic with mini-roundabouts because of their size and shape. They only work (to the extent that they do work - I have my doubts in some cases) if people negotiate them at low speed and by going round them. There isn't enough space for everyone to enter the roundabout simultaneously at speed and then get out of the way of everyone else, as there often is on full-size roundabouts. If you've got several vehicles arriving at one simultaneously, you can't work that out simply by applying rules of priority. There has to be dynamic interaction - give and take - between drivers, as there is on S1s or in car parks.

This is why I have my doubts about the suitability of some mini-roundabout installations. On roads where you expect drivers to interact with each other and with NMUs dynamically, and not necessarily according to the letter of the rules on priority, they work well. But on more major roads where people expect to give way and be given way to according to the established rules of priority, they are less good. They introduce uncertainty where a categorical statement of priority (using give way or stop signs, or traffic lights) would be more useful.

We had a discussion recently (I forget which thread) where I suggested reducing the use of the signs "you have priority over oncoming vehicles" and "give way to oncoming vehicles" at chicanes and other pinch points, in favour of letting drivers work it out for themselves. Again, this would only work in a low-speed, low-traffic environment, but IMV would be positive because it gets drivers to look at the actual circumstances in front of them rather than just "that person crossed my priority! Waaaaaahh!".

Basically, in situations where mini-roundabouts are suitable, you have to accept that the normal rules of priority may be overridden by events. Priority, whether granted by road markings, green lights or rules like priorité à droite, is *always* conditional on it being safe to proceed. If there's someone emerging in front of you, it's not safe to proceed - simple as that. And in some situations, it can be impossible to emerge at a mini-roundabout without causing other traffic to deviate to an extent. That is just life in a crowded country.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Piatkow »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34 Maybe I am missing something here but I struggle to see that there is any ambiguity.

The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?

I can imagine some ambiguity if there is a case where it is marginal as to "who crossed the line first" but in this case the BMW was almost off the roundabout before the other car even entered. In fact I would criticise them for being too hesitant and not just keeping going and getting out of the way that way.

Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?

Not being obscure, just genuinely puzzled.
My view entirely.

I wasn't counting but certainly a significant number of "incidents" were down to the cammer failing to read the road ahead and anticipating what was about to happen.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by trickstat »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34 Maybe I am missing something here but I struggle to see that there is any ambiguity.

The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?

I can imagine some ambiguity if there is a case where it is marginal as to "who crossed the line first" but in this case the BMW was almost off the roundabout before the other car even entered. In fact I would criticise them for being too hesitant and not just keeping going and getting out of the way that way.

Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?
Good point. If it was purely "priority to the right", why would any authority go to the bother of installing a mini-roundabout at a T-junction?
Al__S
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Al__S »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34
Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?
For example, like this
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by marconaf »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34 Maybe I am missing something here but I struggle to see that there is any ambiguity.

The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?

I can imagine some ambiguity if there is a case where it is marginal as to "who crossed the line first" but in this case the BMW was almost off the roundabout before the other car even entered. In fact I would criticise them for being too hesitant and not just keeping going and getting out of the way that way.

Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?

Not being obscure, just genuinely puzzled.
Quite, the camera car is going too fast and the other car had already pulled out well before they got there. Seems an obvious, “slow, let them go”.

Even if you see it as more marginal than that, proceeding is contrary to “dont have an accident” as ultimately, rightly or wrongly, they’ve started so the safe thing to do is adjust and wait.

Driving on round them and the roundabout like that is tawtish and engenders an accident.

As for mini roundabouts, I’m quite happy to go over or wrong side/partly wrong side if its a more optimal line to take and there is nothing even close that I could interfere with. Not least some installstions it isnt possible to not do that given the geometry.

Generally I find the hestiation at these causes most problems - people arent sure so stop, whuch can cascade round. An assertive “I’m going” helps fix what will happen to everyone’s benefit.

All in all I think it illustrates how these are often used unsuitably - driving should be fairly intuitive and the more signs you put up and more you paint the road, the bigger the indication that the layout is fundamentally the problem if people are getting it wrong.

I was taught the road is there to use, so use it if that helps (likewise taking a centre line on corners providing absolutely certain nothing on-coming - ie gentle bends as opposed to blind!). Granted the rules may be different, but as they say, rules are for the guidance of the wise and blind obedience of the foolish.

Does reinforce dont have a camera as the main victim is likely to be you for your mistakes!
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by B1040 »

As I see it, mini roundabouts give an opportunity for traffic to flow where there's too much traffic for fixed priority. They need slowish traffic and good sightlines, and usually a certain amount of give and take.
Not all mini roundabouts are appropriate. I had to change my cycle route to work because cars coming into town didn't think to give way to a cyclist (or cars) pulling out of the right hand side road.
It got better when Tesco put in a roundabout slightly further out of town.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Bfivethousand »

It's usually the case on these dashcam channels that whenever a mini-roundabout clip appears, the junction is of a pretty substandard design with poor deflection. Indeed, a little physical deflection would have forced the cammer in this clip to moderate their speed more substantially and thus prevent the altercation happening in the first place. That's usually the case on other mini-roundabout clips.

Interesting to note Jervi mention Ashley Neal upthread. I watched one of his mini-roundabout clips last night and he leaves the viewer in no doubt that anyone taking the view that whoever enters the junction first assumes priority is well and truly incorrect.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by B1040 »

On a full size roundabout, if you enter before someone else, unless there's a significant speed differential, then you're unlikely to obstruct them. On mini roundabouts that's not always the case.
Do the designers of mini roundabouts expect a low entry speed? (that's a genuine question).
I know some on main roads, A1198 at Bassingbourne, A10 in Royston, where that's not always a given.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Stevie D »

XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?
The rule for mini-roundabouts is to give way to traffic coming round the mini-roundabout from your right. Nowhere does it say "give way to traffic on the mini-roundabout", it says "give way to traffic approaching from the right", just the same as for any other roundabout.

In this case, I would say both drivers were at fault. The driver of the camera car was going too fast to negotiate the mini-roundabout properly, but at the same time it should have been clear to the BMW driver that the approaching car was going at speed and so shouldn't have pulled out.
Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?
trickstat wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 19:45Good point. If it was purely "priority to the right", why would any authority go to the bother of installing a mini-roundabout at a T-junction?
"Priority to the right" isn't the same as a T-junction, because it means that traffic turning right from the straight-through road has priority over traffic coming the other way, unlike at a T-junction where that would be the other way round.

"Priority to the right" is exactly what a normal roundabout is.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by FosseWay »

Bfivethousand wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 22:13 It's usually the case on these dashcam channels that whenever a mini-roundabout clip appears, the junction is of a pretty substandard design with poor deflection. Indeed, a little physical deflection would have forced the cammer in this clip to moderate their speed more substantially and thus prevent the altercation happening in the first place. That's usually the case on other mini-roundabout clips.

Interesting to note Jervi mention Ashley Neal upthread. I watched one of his mini-roundabout clips last night and he leaves the viewer in no doubt that anyone taking the view that whoever enters the junction first assumes priority is well and truly incorrect.
+1 recommendation for Ashley Neal from me.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Mark Hewitt »

I've had more than a few close calls when turning right at a mini roundabout t-junction. Seems to happen when you're turning across the obvious 'straight ahead' road. You don't always know that the driver coming at you has been paying attention and has noticed and processed that there's a roundabout ahead.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by SteveA30 »

Not indicating at a mini rbt is the main problem, when turning right. Assume they are going straight on and then they turn into you so, you have to assume they are turning right to be on the safe side. They do go straight on and you stopped for nothing. It makes it seem as if they did something wrong but of course, they didn't. I suppose they could indicate left but, only after passing their left exit, which gives no time to turn on their indicator afterwards. Mini rbts are too well, mini.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by FosseWay »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 07:06 I've had more than a few close calls when turning right at a mini roundabout t-junction. Seems to happen when you're turning across the obvious 'straight ahead' road. You don't always know that the driver coming at you has been paying attention and has noticed and processed that there's a roundabout ahead.
The other issue is the nature of the junction that the mini-roundabout has been installed at, and this applies to smaller normal roundabouts as well. You get them quite often at junctions with very asymmetrical flows, where 99+% of the traffic goes straight on in either direction, with very little turning into or out of what amounts to a glorified driveway. Drivers get complacent and presume there won't be anything emerging from the right, or that oncoming traffic won't be turning right, because in their experience there never is anyone doing that. It's very easy for people to say that drivers shouldn't assume this or that, shouldn't be complacent, shouldn't be governed by past experience etc. No, they shouldn't, but the fact remains that they do, and moreover general psychological knowledge of human nature could have predicted that they would. I think designers have some responsibility for accidents that occur in this kind of situation, because it is so blindingly obvious that drivers will be lulled into a false sense that "nothing ever comes out of there". There are other ways of dealing with these junctions that avoid this, such as traffic lights or preventing right turns into/out of a side road and getting users who want to do that to go the other way and go all the way round a full size roundabout.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by marconaf »

Stevie D wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 23:21
XC70 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 14:34The BMW entering from the left is well onto the roundabout way before the recording vehicle is anywhere near the roundabout. I can't see how the BMW wouldn't have priority?
The rule for mini-roundabouts is to give way to traffic coming round the mini-roundabout from your right. Nowhere does it say "give way to traffic on the mini-roundabout", it says "give way to traffic approaching from the right", just the same as for any other roundabout.

In this case, I would say both drivers were at fault. The driver of the camera car was going too fast to negotiate the mini-roundabout properly, but at the same time it should have been clear to the BMW driver that the approaching car was going at speed and so shouldn't have pulled out.
Surely if it is classed as "priority to the right" then it ceases to become a roundabout and just becomes a junction?
trickstat wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 19:45Good point. If it was purely "priority to the right", why would any authority go to the bother of installing a mini-roundabout at a T-junction?
"Priority to the right" isn't the same as a T-junction, because it means that traffic turning right from the straight-through road has priority over traffic coming the other way, unlike at a T-junction where that would be the other way round.

"Priority to the right" is exactly what a normal roundabout is.
All this assumes you and the traffic are arriving at the same or similar times. As with any junction, its a judgement call as to whether the traffic from the right, which I think all would agree has priority - is in the same time and space as you so as to need that priority. So no you cant turn in front so as to stop someone who is from your right just because you were quicker to line (a US 4 way stop approach where that is the case), but there is no reason why you couldnt go if by doing so you’ve cleared it (or their indicated path) before they arrive.

As per the original incident - thats what I assume the BMW has done, then realising the camera car was going excessively fast (regardless of limit - driving at that was clearly OTT) which doesnt seem unreasonable as given the time and space, the BMW could reasonably have expected to clear the roundabout prior to the priority traffic arriving. As it was, that didnt work but they were still able to safely stop and did so. Then the camera car behaved further like a tawt.

A more common problem I find at mini roundabouts is say 3 of us all arriving near simultaneously and all giving way to the right, which creates stalemate. Fixing that with an assertive “I’m taking charge” as above will inevitably result in someone “losing priority” as it isnt possible to maintain priority for all unless you all inch on and all stop on it which isn’t in anyones interests. To try and avoid this I aim to anticipate this happening and speed up or down so as to clearly differentiate arrival time and thus assume or cede a “lead priority” and make someone more equal than others. That again is a judgement call.
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Re: You've been using mini-roundabouts incorrectly all this time

Post by Fenlander »

What’s the purpose of the give way markings if not to create a give way scenario? The other car is already in the junction so the BMW should give way, and certainly shouldn’t try to wrong side both the approach to the roundabout or the actual centre blob itself.
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