A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

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NICK 647063
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A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by NICK 647063 »

Good Evening Guys

I’m just after a bit of advice before contacting Highways England in regards to the accident cluster on the A64 around Bilbrough Top.

To explain my family live alongside the dual carriageway here and it’s a well known accident black spot, now I know it’s mainly the single carriageway A64 sections that get most criticism and rightly so but the A64 from the end of the Tadcaster Bypass to the York Bypass is a very old dual carriageway with a history of accidents, what prompted this is last night 2 teenagers were sadly killed in an accident, this only comes 8 weeks after a pedestrian died here too.

The section of A64 that is the problem is 4 miles long, a very old D2 with narrow carriageways and bends, I can remember most of the fatal accidents but I’ve gone through the data tonight and in the last 20 years we have had 17 fatal collisions on this 4 mile section resulting in 31 fatalities (this is including the latest ones) obviously this doesn’t include the serious accidents and minor this is simply the lost lives.... everyone in the area knows it’s an accident blackspot.

After an accident a number of years ago the sister of the victim called for street lights on the A64 after her brother wasn’t discovered until the morning light, from my memory nearly all the fatal accidents have occurred in the dark, the issue is here at both ends you leave high quality D2 straight onto a narrower, more bendy D2 with farm traffic and pedestrian crossings.

What I’m after is your ideas or experience of the A64 here so when I contact HE I can give them a list of viable ideas, personally the local feeling is street lighting is a definite idea as I know we try and remove from motorways where not needed but here with new LED lighting it would help drivers see ahead and notice the bends and pedestrians waiting to cross, the main issue with the pedestrians are they badly misjudge the speeds here in the dark and due to lack of lighting drivers cannot react in time, also another idea is to drop it to 60mph along with the streetlights as this would make it clear you are entering a lower grade section of road, this would need to be backed up with average speed cameras.

Obviously we had the GSJ added at Bilbrough Top which removed the gap but the accidents keep going on, we often have to cross the A64 on foot here to get to the land opposite and a number of public footpaths cross on this section, going up-to Bilbrough top bridge isn’t an option as it’s a mile walk to cross and a mile back, so banning pedestrians isn’t an option, a footbridge halfway between Bilbrough Top and Tadcaster is probably too expensive to consider.

Anyway I’m just after your thoughts on this section, it’s a D2 with 60,000 + AADT, 31 fatalities on a 4 mile section in 20 years surely needs looking at, it’s a clear cluster site compared to the section either side, an expressway has been talked about in the future but for now I think we need something quick that would help the situation, the current situation is both tragic for the families of these victims but also residents who have to help and see first hand the devastation, something you can never forget.
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SouthWest Philip
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by SouthWest Philip »

It would seem to me that the only truly satisfactory solution would be an offline upgrade, arguably D3(+/-M) rather than D2, from the Tadcaster bypass to the York bypass with the existing dual carriageway retained as a local access road and reduced to a single carriageway. Clearly bridges need providing for all foot crossings too. Something akin to the recent A1(M) upgrade between Dishforth and Barton.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by NICK 647063 »

It would seem to me that the only truly satisfactory solution would be an offline upgrade, arguably D3(+/-M) rather than D2, from the Tadcaster bypass to the York bypass with the existing dual carriageway retained as a local access road and reduced to a single carriageway. Clearly bridges need providing for all foot crossings too. Something akin to the recent A1(M) upgrade between Dishforth and Barton.
Yep that’s the common sense and sensible solution, it was listed as a future expressway but now that’s all quiet, a scheme on that scale would take years and years, I’m just thinking of anything that could be done pretty quickly.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by stu531 »

I think a lot the problems aren't just because it's overloaded (and really needs to be D3M as mentioned), but also because it's 'busy' with street furniture - there's a lot happening on it.

There isn't a significant straight stretch on it. There are bus stops, lay-bys, the services, the Bilbrough Top bridge, and that's as well as a series of gentle bends to it. I think it's one of those roads where drivers' brains have a lot to process at any one time, which makes it bizarrely difficult to drive.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Heading Yorkbound, this is the first below-par stretch of road since leaving the high quality A1(M) and the reasonably good Tadcaster bypass. Certainly at night, the difference of quality is noticeable - you go from being able to drive on "autopilot" to having to actually concentrate. The bends, although not really a big issue in themselves, could catch the unwary/low skilled/novice driver out in the dark - knowing the road, I'm happy to do 70 at night (with care, in the right conditions etc.). I do recall that last time I passed that way to see my folks in York, they'd really gone to town with the cats eyes renewal along there.

I've known this road since I was little, and have seen the numerous upgrades over the years - Bramham Crossroads (which was nasty to make a right turn on), the gaps being closed, the traffic lights being removed at Copmanthorpe, Bilborough Top... yet I'm surprised that the KSI rate is still so high.

Not convinced that lowering the speed limit will be of use, but certainly lighting wouldn't go amiss. As for NMU issues, there's half decent paths to the side of the A64 there (or at least there was when I cycled it in the 90s, and apart from Bilborough Top, I'm not sure where any other crossing points would needed/justified? It passes through a lot of nothing, so just wondering where the pedestrians come from?
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KeithW
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by KeithW »

First lets get real here. If its not in RIS2/3 and it isn't, no D3M is going to happen.

There is nothing very special about the road except for the ludicrous cluster of businesses with dodgy access to the road.

The last fatal I saw reports on involved a pedestrian who tried to cross the road on foot at 5AM in February and was hit by a driver who was high on drugs. The bottom line is that pedestrians and cars on a fast dual carriageway is not a good mix. Making the road D3 is not going to fix that.

I know that stretch of road reasonably well and to me its blinding obvious that a layout that has businesses either side of the road, no fencing to separate pedestrians from the road, and an inadequate and badly signed pedestrian overpass is lethal. As for where pedestrians come from there is a Premier Inn, a Travelodge and the dodgiest looking takeaway on a fast road I can imagine. Its highly dangerous and the owner should be told to improve the access or close. down.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.90746 ... 8192?hl=en

I suppose we ought to be grateful that at least they have closed the gap in the central reservation
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by ellandback »

An "other danger" sign with yellow backing board - "Accident blackspot for 4 miles"?

A "pedestrians" warning sign near the places where they are most likely to be wanting to cross?
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by JohnnyMo »

KeithW wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 08:34 As for where pedestrians come from there is a Premier Inn, a Travelodge and the dodgiest looking takeaway on a fast road I can imagine. Its highly dangerous and the owner should be told to improve the access or close. down.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.90746 ... 8192?hl=en
I can't see how anyone other than the highway authority is responsibility for that crossing, yes I agree the sight line is none existent for both the driver and the pedestrian.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Conekicker »

ellandback wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 09:04 An "other danger" sign with yellow backing board - "Accident blackspot for 4 miles"?

A "pedestrians" warning sign near the places where they are most likely to be wanting to cross?
Accident blackspot is not a prescribed sign. It's an admission of failure and thus is not used.

There are pedestrian crossing signs, but they are quite a way back

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.89856 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by wrinkly »

KeithW wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 08:34
There is nothing very special about the road except for the ludicrous cluster of businesses with dodgy access to the road.
As new HQDCs are built, the proportion of rural DCs that are HQs becomes higher, so ones that aren't HQ become more exceptional. This one, though without sharp bends, is all wiggles and, as you say, dodgy accesses - though the Bilbrough Top grade separation removed some of both.
Last edited by wrinkly on Wed May 05, 2021 10:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Bryn666 »

Conekicker wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 09:33
ellandback wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 09:04 An "other danger" sign with yellow backing board - "Accident blackspot for 4 miles"?

A "pedestrians" warning sign near the places where they are most likely to be wanting to cross?
Accident blackspot is not a prescribed sign. It's an admission of failure and thus is not used.

There are pedestrian crossing signs, but they are quite a way back

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.89856 ... 8192?hl=en
I don't use it often but it's a 1930s dual carriageway sandwiched between two 1970s era bypasses. This doesn't excuse poor driving in the slightest, but this is exactly the kind of twisty alignment the old Z bends sign was perfect for. Who was the fool responsible for binning that off in 1975?
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Chris Bertram »

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Alex406
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Alex406 »

Living in York, I drive this stretch fairly regularly. The bends are not too tight at 70mph, even my car manages it by itself and it usually aborts on tighter corners. The issue to me is that you can drive for hours from elsewhere in the country on HQDCs and motorways and this is the first bit of substandard road you hit, as such as mentioned a few posts above, there is just too much going on to process, many 90 degree side exits, field and property accesses, bus stops, laybys and pedestrian crossing accesses.

In my opinion the fix would be to remove as many items that require additional brain-processing time.

- Remove the laybys in this section, there's the services at Bilbrough both sides for a break on this section.
- Remove the bus stops, they are every few hundred meters, just for a few properties and some for none. There may be an inconvenience for those who occasionally use them, but reducing accidents should take priority. Perhaps create an offline bus stop in both sides of the Bilbrough services.
- No new accesses or businesses - there's current planning permission in to convert the old signal station on the westbound in to Starbucks.
- Look at closing more side roads, the one by the Buckles Inn and Slice Lane for example.
- Alter the side roads so they don't meet the main carriageway - link up Catterton lane with the end of the A659 just before it joins the A64 and extend The Old Street to Catterton Lane and close off the existing junction at Street Houses.

Also look at why people are having to walk across the carriageway, where they are doing it and what could be done to mitigate that. Perhaps a footbridge at the most crossed point or the point with the highest pedestrian casualties.

In short, try and make it as close to an HQDC as possible by removing the infrastructure that stops it from being one.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by KeithW »

ellandback wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 09:04 An "other danger" sign with yellow backing board - "Accident blackspot for 4 miles"?

A "pedestrians" warning sign near the places where they are most likely to be wanting to cross?

Just what is a driver who sees such a sign supposed to do ? I you want traffic to slow down put in a speed limit and enforce it, the sort of signs you describe rarely made any difference except to allow the lawmakers to say 'well at least we tried'

If you want to keep pedestrians off the road fence it and provide a proper crossing point as would be done with a motorway, there is a public right of way between Bilbrough and Colton that crosses via the road overpass but the steps up to it are not visible from the footpath and the signage is appalling so people will take the chance of crossing the road. People are rather bad at judging speed of approaching traffic and dont appreciate that a car coming towards them from a mile away can hit them in less than a minute.

They had the same problem at Great Ponton on the A1 and put in this footbridge.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Micro The Maniac »

ravenbluemoon wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 00:16 Heading Yorkbound, this is the first below-par stretch of road since leaving the high quality A1(M) and the reasonably good Tadcaster bypass.
As a fairly regular traveller up that way (at least in normal times) I hadn't really considered it that much of a down-grade... but after 200+ miles of motorway or near motorway, I'm already getting attuned to the A1237 turnoff a short while later.

Certainly, this area is much better than it used to be...

I'd be curious to know the cause of the KSIs along this stretch - and whether it is indeed the road design/layout! I take the point about pedestrians, and that is (surely) easy to fix.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Peter Freeman »

Lots of good suggestions above. OK, I'll make myself unpopular by saying, in addition to some of those minor improvements, lower (and enforce) the speed limit. It's an accident blackspot!
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Bryn666 »

Peter Freeman wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:29 Lots of good suggestions above. OK, I'll make myself unpopular by saying, in addition to some of those minor improvements, lower (and enforce) the speed limit. It's an accident blackspot!
I have argued for a while that it's ridiculous that these pre-motorway duals have the same speed limit as much better quality roads.

For me I'd raise the motorway limit to 75 to match the design speed and reduce the speed on all-purpose duals to 60. If a HQDC is good enough to be a motorway, it should be a motorway.
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Bomag »

With all of these problem areas unless you know what is the causes of the fatal accidents then suggesting a 'solution' which may have no positive impact, isn't helpful - if accidents are not occurring due to inability to drive safely in the range 60-70 then there is no benefit of lowering the speed limit given that the SSD is 300m (or should be if the vegetation is properly cut back, but hey it's a lump sum activity). If fatals are due to speeding traffic (above 70mph) then enforcement is an order of magnitude more effective than reducing the limit. Having driven this section a significant number of times over the last 30 years (but not daily) the main problem I have seen is inappropriate joining and leaving of traffic, a C/D road, or something like Copmanthorpe would be an option for this issue.

Putting in limited street lighting at some of the more squeaky access points could be practicable given there is a power supply but first I would do a refresh of the lines markings and studs to the latest guidance (TSM Chapter 5:2019 and the National Annex to BS EN 1436:2018)
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:38 I have argued for a while that it's ridiculous that these pre-motorway duals have the same speed limit as much better quality roads.

For me I'd raise the motorway limit to 75 to match the design speed and reduce the speed on all-purpose duals to 60. If a HQDC is good enough to be a motorway, it should be a motorway.
Surely it's just as ridiculous that a dual-carriageway would then have the same speed limit as a single carriageway?

Mind you, given the rate-determining step of a S2 is the HGV you're stuck behind, there is some logic in making them 55 limits?
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Re: A64 Tadcaster to York accident issues

Post by Bryn666 »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:16
Bryn666 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:38 I have argued for a while that it's ridiculous that these pre-motorway duals have the same speed limit as much better quality roads.

For me I'd raise the motorway limit to 75 to match the design speed and reduce the speed on all-purpose duals to 60. If a HQDC is good enough to be a motorway, it should be a motorway.
Surely it's just as ridiculous that a dual-carriageway would then have the same speed limit as a single carriageway?

Mind you, given the rate-determining step of a S2 is the HGV you're stuck behind, there is some logic in making them 55 limits?
Arguably many single carriageways are not really driveable at more than 50 anyway, HGV or not in front. Or, to put it another way, you could do 50+ but you'd have a reaction time of near zero if anything happened. This is something that, if we ever went metric (lololololololol) would need to be properly addressed; there's a thread on that already though.
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