Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by SteveA30 »

[quoteAre there any other motorway junctions, excluding temporary termini for an already part-built road, which were built several years before the motorway was?][/quote]

The M3/M25 junction bridges were in place when the M3 extension opened in 1974. There were no slips, just isolated bridges. I didn't know about the M25 then and called it the Bridge Showroom. "I'll have 2 of these and 1 of those please"
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by Steven »

RJDG14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 when a motorway has been built with a temporary terminus that would be completely rebuilt just a few years later (such as the southern end of the Preston Bypass, which was originally an at-grade roundabout and was grade separated only when the road was extended south.
This isn't true.

The southern terminus of the M6 Preston Bypass was not "completely rebuilt" as suggested - it was already laid out ready for the future extension to the south. There's both maps and images on Bamber Bridge Interchange on the SABRE Wiki.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Bamber Bridge Interchange :


Bamber Bridge Interchange is junction 29 of the M6 and junction 1 of the M65. Originally, this junction formed the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass, until the M6 to the south opened in 1963. The completion of the M65 in December 1997 resulted in the junction being modified to its current form.

In between 1958 and 1997, the signs on the southbound M6 approach to this junction listed "A6 Chorley, Manchester", even with the construction of the

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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by Herned »

I can remember vaguely as a child one of the junctions of the M25 having all the earthworks done and bridges over nothing, the wiki tells me it was j8 which makes sense as we would have been heading for Brighton. Although why we didn't use the M23 instead is a different matter
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by RJDG14 »

Steven wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 07:19
RJDG14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 when a motorway has been built with a temporary terminus that would be completely rebuilt just a few years later (such as the southern end of the Preston Bypass, which was originally an at-grade roundabout and was grade separated only when the road was extended south.
This isn't true.

The southern terminus of the M6 Preston Bypass was not "completely rebuilt" as suggested - it was already laid out ready for the future extension to the south. There's both maps and images on Bamber Bridge Interchange on the SABRE Wiki.
You'd be right on this - it does have its north facing sliproads in the early photo, but from what I can tell it's lacking both bridges, whereas temporary termini such as J18 of the M4 (Tormarton) were built with their bridges. The northern terminus which is today a junction on the M55 appears to have been built the same way, with sliproad provision but without either bridge.

I believe the present day M6/M55 junction at the northern end of the Preston Bypass was built as simply a sharp bend without any future earthwork provision for the M6's northern extension (both carriageways followed the line of the present day northbound sliproad), but I have a feeling that at least some of the land for the modern junction had been purchased and was fenced as part of the motorway's territory.


The Lancaster bypass didn't have any proper provision for its northern/southern extensions at the time of construction, with the motorway simply having a sharp left/right turn without any of the modern junction's earthworks at the present day J33 (though according to the wiki it was built of a lesser quality material, with the intention that it was to be a temporary configuration) and a moderate kink to the left/right at the present day J35, with the last mile or so of the original Lancaster Bypass being the present day A601(M).

I have a feeling that the original Stafford Bypass (I believe this was the next section of the M6 to open after the Preston and Lancaster sections) had temporary termini without full future provision as well, though I've only seen a couple of old maps of it (I can check online again; this was about 5-10 years ago). Nope, I was wrong. It appears that its temporary termini were built with full provision in their modern day form.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Bamber Bridge Interchange :


Bamber Bridge Interchange is junction 29 of the M6 and junction 1 of the M65. Originally, this junction formed the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass, until the M6 to the south opened in 1963. The completion of the M65 in December 1997 resulted in the junction being modified to its current form.

In between 1958 and 1997, the signs on the southbound M6 approach to this junction listed "A6 Chorley, Manchester", even with the construction of the

... Read More
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by wrinkly »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 13:21
Steven wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 07:19 The southern terminus of the M6 Preston Bypass was not "completely rebuilt" as suggested - it was already laid out ready for the future extension to the south. There's both maps and images on Bamber Bridge Interchange on the SABRE Wiki.
You'd be right on this - it does have its north facing sliproads in the early photo, but from what I can tell it's lacking both bridges
Indeed. There were several other temporary termini like that in NW England - roundabout first built without bridges, then later underpassed without permanent change in alignment of roundabout or slip roads, as discussed in this old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26811

To the examples there we can now add Bridge End roundabout on the A69, though it's not in the NW.

The unusual thing about the original south end of the Preston bypass was that a house or other building originally remained inside the roundabout.
The northern terminus which is today a junction on the M55 appears to have been built the same way, with sliproad provision but without either bridge.
and with a big embankment between the slip roads. At one time the police tried patrolling the M6 with a helicopter, and I think I saw a picture of it landed on that embankment.

From the SABRE Wiki: Bamber Bridge Interchange :


Bamber Bridge Interchange is junction 29 of the M6 and junction 1 of the M65. Originally, this junction formed the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass, until the M6 to the south opened in 1963. The completion of the M65 in December 1997 resulted in the junction being modified to its current form.

In between 1958 and 1997, the signs on the southbound M6 approach to this junction listed "A6 Chorley, Manchester", even with the construction of the

... Read More
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by RJDG14 »

wrinkly wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 14:35
RJDG14 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 13:21
Steven wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 07:19 The southern terminus of the M6 Preston Bypass was not "completely rebuilt" as suggested - it was already laid out ready for the future extension to the south. There's both maps and images on Bamber Bridge Interchange on the SABRE Wiki.
You'd be right on this - it does have its north facing sliproads in the early photo, but from what I can tell it's lacking both bridges
Indeed. There were several other temporary termini like that in NW England - roundabout first built without bridges, then later underpassed without permanent change in alignment of roundabout or slip roads, as discussed in this old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26811

To the examples there we can now add Bridge End roundabout on the A69, though it's not in the NW.

The unusual thing about the original south end of the Preston bypass was that a house or other building originally remained inside the roundabout.
The northern terminus which is today a junction on the M55 appears to have been built the same way, with sliproad provision but without either bridge.
and with a big embankment between the slip roads. At one time the police tried patrolling the M6 with a helicopter, and I think I saw a picture of it landed on that embankment.
While the bridges were being built, would a temporary road have been built in the middle and the junction made into a temporary fork of some sort?

Ironically I actually had exactly that junction (Bridge End on the A69) in mind - I was on it in 2013 and clearly remember it felt like it was built with future provision for grade separation, with embankments but no bridges. It looks like they're now finally getting round to grade separating it. From what I could find, it was originally built in the 1970s, which is roughly the era it feels.

Why would they have built the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass without bridges since they intended to extend it southwards only a few years later at the time, though?
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From the SABRE Wiki: Bamber Bridge Interchange :


Bamber Bridge Interchange is junction 29 of the M6 and junction 1 of the M65. Originally, this junction formed the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass, until the M6 to the south opened in 1963. The completion of the M65 in December 1997 resulted in the junction being modified to its current form.

In between 1958 and 1997, the signs on the southbound M6 approach to this junction listed "A6 Chorley, Manchester", even with the construction of the

... Read More
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by wrinkly »

RJDG14 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 15:04
wrinkly wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 14:35
Indeed. There were several other temporary termini like that in NW England - roundabout first built without bridges, then later underpassed without permanent change in alignment of roundabout or slip roads, as discussed in this old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26811

To the examples there we can now add Bridge End roundabout on the A69, though it's not in the NW.

The unusual thing about the original south end of the Preston bypass was that a house or other building originally remained inside the roundabout.
The northern terminus which is today a junction on the M55 appears to have been built the same way, with sliproad provision but without either bridge.
and with a big embankment between the slip roads. At one time the police tried patrolling the M6 with a helicopter, and I think I saw a picture of it landed on that embankment.
While the bridges were being built, would a temporary road have been built in the middle and the junction made into a temporary fork of some sort?
I don't know what method was used at Bamber Bridge but my best guess would be the temporary creation of a much bigger roundabout using the slip roads. That method has certainly been used at some other locations. I think at Bent Gate on the A56 a temporary road was built through the middle but that was later, after the invention of the mini-roundabout.
Ironically I actually had exactly that junction (Bridge End on the A69) in mind - I was on it in 2013 and clearly remember it felt like it was built with future provision for grade separation, with embankments but no bridges. It looks like they're now finally getting round to grade separating it. From what I could find, it was originally built in the 1970s, which is roughly the era it feels.
I think the temporarily extended roundabout is being used there. If they then go on to do the Styford roundabout, that will be easier, as the main carriageways will go over.
Why would they have built the southern terminus of the Preston Bypass without bridges since they intended to extend it southwards only a few years later at the time, though?
Dunno, maybe to keep the initial expenditure down.
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by SBRoxMan »

KeithW wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 15:39
B1040 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 15:27
RJDG14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 Are there any other motorway junctions, excluding temporary termini for an already part-built road, which were built several years before the motorway was?
Not motorway, but the A12 Stanway bypass ended at an incomplete junction.
I'm sure there must be lots of others that I've seen in map quizzes on this very website, but can't call to mind.
So did the M1 at Leeds
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the roundabout at the original M1 Leeds termini built with the expectation that the M1 and M621 would merge and go further into Leeds?
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by Steven »

SBRoxMan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 15:59
KeithW wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 15:39
B1040 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 15:27

Not motorway, but the A12 Stanway bypass ended at an incomplete junction.
I'm sure there must be lots of others that I've seen in map quizzes on this very website, but can't call to mind.
So did the M1 at Leeds
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't the roundabout at the original M1 Leeds termini built with the expectation that the M1 and M621 would merge and go further into Leeds?
Yes, you're talking about the Leeds North East Urban Motorway.
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by fras »

Another "interesting" roundabout just off the A446 is south of the M6 where there is a spur off the A446 to the A452. There is a very large roundabout with the M42 going straight through it underneath with no connections. One does wonder if any connections were intended. Actually this roundabout is to disappear under HS2 reworking of the local roads network as the line passes right through the middle of the roundabout on a viaduct.
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by wrinkly »

fras wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 19:29 Another "interesting" roundabout just off the A446 is south of the M6 where there is a spur off the A446 to the A452. There is a very large roundabout with the M42 going straight through it underneath with no connections. One does wonder if any connections were intended. Actually this roundabout is to disappear under HS2 reworking of the local roads network as the line passes right through the middle of the roundabout on a viaduct.
I don't think any slip roads could have been planned because there were already five roads connecting to the roundabout and there was no space on the roundabout for more. A left turn from any of the roads to the next road round would encounter only left-turning curves in the nearside kerbline.

I think the roundabout may already have been relocated as I think I've seen pictures of the HS2 bridge structure being positioned on multi-wheel transporters.

There's also a roundabout over the M3 with no connection.
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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by gepree68 »

The dates we have for the two bits of M6 J4 are as follows:

1971-02-15
M6 J4 opened (from J4 to J5), connecting M6 to A446

1976-11-08
M6 J4 expanded, now also connecting M6 to the new M42

When M6 J4 originally opened in 1971, did they know that the connection to M42 was on the way?

Or did they have to dig up (in 1975 or 1976) lots of what they had built just 5 or 6 years earlier?
Last edited by gepree68 on Thu May 27, 2021 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

From the SABRE Wiki: Network changes - 1970s :
list of the changes to the road network in Great Britain from 1970 - 1979.  Includes road openings and renumberings.


NC|1971|A165|Coniston Bypass|Yorkshire|Reported as now open by the Hull Daily Mail of 9 February 1971.NC|1971|A168|Dishforth Bypass|Yorkshire|The 1.4 mile dual carriageway from 1013 yards north-east of Duckhill Lane to Blind Lane,

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Re: Was the roundabout at J4 of the M6 built several years before the motorway was?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

RJDG14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 Are there any other motorway junctions, excluding temporary termini for an already part-built road, which were built several years before the motorway was?
Slightly further afield, the overpass of what became a junction on the A52 near Niederkruchen was built in the late 70s... when I last drove past in the late 90s it was still an orphan structure in the middle of a field! I don't know when the autobahn was finally built...

I think it was this one, but might have been the one at Waldneil:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZaRWkvxmby2rDZUF8
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