Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Steven »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 14:20 Interestingly there is a section of the A1 in Scotland which is a special road with the same restrictions as a motorway an yet it remains just the A1 albeit with a plethora of signs banning everything except Class I and Class II traffic. There is also the A720 of course.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.92798 ... 8192?hl=en
IIRC, it's not the same as a motorway - it also allows Class IV traffic.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by A9NWIL »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:36
lotrjw wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 22:59 Not the section in question it was brand new when the A14 was as you say cobbled together. So no need for an LAR, besides there are plenty of routes round that section, that could act as an LAR.
There are however problems with doing that now.

The first is that having been in place well over 20 years extinguishing existing rights of way would almost certainly raise legal challenges.

The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... 6656?hl=en

Then there are the all purpose roads that code share along the A14 such as the A6 between junctions 3 and 10 and the A43 between J7 and J8

All of these problems could be overcome of course - at a price. I don't see any great appetite to spend the sort of sums needed or any commensurate gain.
Well Im only referring to the section between Catthorpe junction and A14 junction 1 with the A5199 at this time, while sections east
of there would benefit from being a motorway thats for later. This short section is realistically unable to be used by anything other than motorway class vehicles, it would have been easy to extend the special road order from Catthorpe to the A5199 at the time the junction was remodelled. Yes the road is D2 only but there is a precedence for sub standard motorways that are much lower quality than this. The laybys could have been turned ERAs too. This would have tidied things up quite well.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Alderpoint »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:36
The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... bfov%3D100
That is not part of the new-build section, that section is part of the old A6 between Kettering and Rothwell.
New-build did not start until what is now Junction 4.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by orudge »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 14:20 Interestingly there is a section of the A1 in Scotland which is a special road with the same restrictions as a motorway an yet it remains just the A1 albeit with a plethora of signs banning everything except Class I and Class II traffic. There is also the A720 of course.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.92798 ... 8192?hl=en
There are a couple of Special Roads in Scotland that are legally speaking motorways (permitting only Class I and II traffic), except that amendments have been made to the Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 to specifically exclude them - most recently the AWPR, with this amendment. As far as I can see, A1 East of Haddington - Dunbar is the only other example. Both of these projects were of course almost entirely new-build.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:36
lotrjw wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 22:59 Not the section in question it was brand new when the A14 was as you say cobbled together. So no need for an LAR, besides there are plenty of routes round that section, that could act as an LAR.
There are however problems with doing that now.

The first is that having been in place well over 20 years extinguishing existing rights of way would almost certainly raise legal challenges.

The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... 6656?hl=en

Then there are the all purpose roads that code share along the A14 such as the A6 between junctions 3 and 10 and the A43 between J7 and J8

All of these problems could be overcome of course - at a price. I don't see any great appetite to spend the sort of sums needed or any commensurate gain.
"Code share"? Isn't that Airline parlance? I think the term is "multiplex".

Anyway, Keith. Multiplexing between A-roads and M-ways is nothing new. Since the building of the Stoke-Derby section of A50, the A50 multiplexes with the M1 between J24 and J22.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

I like this sign just east of the A1 junction :lol:

https://goo.gl/maps/U9JxgZ5JYRh6ogLR6
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by crb11 »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 17:10 I like this sign just east of the A1 junction :lol:

https://goo.gl/maps/U9JxgZ5JYRh6ogLR6
It has an interesting discrepancy from the RCS signs on the M11 in that London is five miles further away than you'd expect. This one reads London 78, Stansted 45 - a 33 mile difference, but the first one on the M11 has London 58, Stansted 30 - 28 miles difference. The two are about 15 miles apart, so it's the London one that's odd. I don't know whether this is just a mistake (78 for 73) or the official route into central London has changed and the M11 signs weren't updated. I could imagine it now being via the A13, which is a bit longer but probably not 5 miles.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 17:08 Anyway, Keith. Multiplexing between A-roads and M-ways is nothing new. Since the building of the Stoke-Derby section of A50, the A50 multiplexes with the M1 between J24 and J22.
Plenty of other examples (I've undoubtedly missed some):
  • A5 - along M1
  • A11 - along M11
  • A30 - along M5
  • A31 - along M3/M27
  • A33 - along M3
  • A34 - along M40/M42
  • A38 - along M5
  • A41 - also along M40/M42
  • A43 - along M1
  • A45 - along M45 and then along the M1
  • A46 - along M5 and then along M69/M1
  • A50 - along M1
OK, some of these are more "bypassed by, and hence the original route downgraded", which also brings the A47 into scope...
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:58
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 17:08 Anyway, Keith. Multiplexing between A-roads and M-ways is nothing new. Since the building of the Stoke-Derby section of A50, the A50 multiplexes with the M1 between J24 and J22.
Plenty of other examples (I've undoubtedly missed some):
  • A5 - along M1
  • A11 - along M11
  • A30 - along M5
  • A31 - along M3/M27
  • A33 - along M3
  • A34 - along M40/M42
  • A38 - along M5
  • A41 - also along M40/M42
  • A43 - along M1
  • A45 - along M45 and then along the M1
  • A46 - along M5 and then along M69/M1
  • A50 - along M1
OK, some of these are more "bypassed by, and hence the original route downgraded", which also brings the A47 into scope...
I am well aware of multiplexing, the problem for the A14 is that if you try and make it a Motorway you will be extinguishing rights used by traffic on a road that has been been there for a very long time. There was a great deal of expense required when Catthorpe was remodelled just to make an acceptable solution from the end of the M6 to A14 J1 including creating a new bridleway from Swinford to Libourne. If you want to extend motorway beyond J1 this is the sort of problem that would have to be addressed. This was much less of a problem for the M1 as it was mostly new build but on the A1(M) between Darrington and Barton a considerable amount of time and effort was expended on building suitable local access roads. At the southern end I have painful memories of the bottleneck that was Hatfield before the tunnel was built.

All of this can be managed of course but the question ultimately is what do you have to show for all the expenditure apart from a substandard motorway and a bunch of blue signs ?

The A11 is an interesting example as it is now really 2 roads.
1) From Aldgate to Bow in London
2) From Stump Cross to Norwich

The remaining sections of the old road between the 2 have been downgraded and renumbered. The old roads are still there of course but no longer form a contiguous signed route. In reality of course the A11 has been considerably upgraded over the years and much of it from Stump Cross has been rerouted, the multiplex along the Newmarket bypass being a good example

The A43 is a very similar example where large sections were downgraded to encourage use of the M40 but once again the old roads are still in existence under different numbers, around Bicester for example it was renumbered the B430

Turning to the A6 much of it around Kettering was built as the Kettering Bypass which predated the A14 and had to be widened to handle the increased levels of traffic. The old A604 ended on the A6 just east of Kettering as I recall.

This is typical of the sort of mess that you get when major roads are upgraded on line which is why much of the A1 between Darrington and Barton was upgraded to A1(M) off line.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Big L »

KeithW wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:40 I am well aware of multiplexing, the problem for the A14 is that if you try and make it a Motorway you will be extinguishing rights used by traffic on a road that has been been there for a very long time...
That bit of A14 is less than 30 years old.
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From the SABRE Wiki: Catthorpe Interchange :


The Catthorpe Interchange is a major motorway and trunk road junction in the Midlands, named after the nearby village of Catthorpe. It marks the starting point of the M6 and the A14, meeting at Junction 19 of the M1.

Originally constructed as a fork junction where the M1 and M6 split (with the local route running underneath), it was adapted during construction of the A14 in 1994. Due to budget constraints, a simple roundabout interchange was built, using the local

... Read More
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

crb11 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 23:48
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 17:10 I like this sign just east of the A1 junction :lol:

https://goo.gl/maps/U9JxgZ5JYRh6ogLR6
It has an interesting discrepancy from the RCS signs on the M11 in that London is five miles further away than you'd expect. This one reads London 78, Stansted 45 - a 33 mile difference, but the first one on the M11 has London 58, Stansted 30 - 28 miles difference. The two are about 15 miles apart, so it's the London one that's odd. I don't know whether this is just a mistake (78 for 73) or the official route into central London has changed and the M11 signs weren't updated. I could imagine it now being via the A13, which is a bit longer but probably not 5 miles.
Interesting - maybe it is a typo. Surely the "proper" route is via A406 and A12 (Redbridge) then A11 (Bow).

Distances on my avatar (albeit northbound) are from the diverge off of the A406 heading clockwise :)
Last edited by Sunil_of_Yoxley on Sun May 16, 2021 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

KeithW wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:36The second is that the new section was not built to comply with motorway regulations so even west of Kettering there are still businesses that can only be accessed from the road such as here at Rothwell.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.41452 ... 6656?hl=en
Actually, those services aren't directly on the A14, you can see a distributor lane on the right, fenced off from the main line.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Alok147 »

the cheesecake man wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 13:19
jgharston wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 13:09
SBRoxMan wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 03:28 but why hasn't the A14 beyond there been designated as something like the A14(M), or perhaps an extension of the M6?
'cos it's really the M11.
Well I watched a programme on BBC4 last night about a site near Peterborough that was described as being by the M11 so perhaps you and the BBC know something the rest of us don't. 8-)
That sounds really interesting! The M11 isn't closer to Peterborough than the A1(M), so the only way what they said can be true is because of an M11 extension.

There was talk a few years ago of building 'expressways'. The realignment of the A14 from Huntington to Cambridge is D3 and flows continuously to the stretch of A14 from Huntington to Catthorpe. This could certainly mean there are plans to upgrade that stretch of the A14 to M11, but I can't see how it's going to get to Peterborough.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Alok147 »

It would make sense for them to upgrade it (they need to add hard shoulders in), to avoid confusion. If someone wasn't legally allowed to drive on motorways, they shouldn't be 'tricked' into going on a motorway. Fair enough, you are warned, but for all intents and purposes, beyond junction 1, you're on the M6 or M1.

I guess they could do something weird and make it a secretive motorway (I.e. put a motorway sign board up without a number). It would imply that you're getting onto the motorway. Basically, what I'm suggesting is a 6 mile slip road! It would end up a bit like the secretive A14(M)/A604(M) by Huntington!
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Alok147 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 21:16 It would make sense for them to upgrade it (they need to add hard shoulders in)
And why, in this age of All Lane Running, would they need hard shoulders?
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Patrick Harper »

There are a couple of cheap solutions available, one is to shorten the M6 to J1, the other is to split the M1 in two and de-specialise J19 to J20. Make it A361 or something.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 17:08 "Code share"? Isn't that Airline parlance? I think the term is "multiplex".

Anyway, Keith. Multiplexing between A-roads and M-ways is nothing new. Since the building of the Stoke-Derby section of A50, the A50 multiplexes with the M1 between J24 and J22.
I spent too much time in the USA so Americanisms do tend to slip past :)

I am well aware of multiplexing involving motorways and A roads. In many cases of course the old A-Road has been downgraded and renumbered but these routes can be seriously useful if the motorway has a real issue. I can still follow most the old A11 south of Stump Cross if I need too :) And I know most of the old A1 through North Yorkshire and Durham like the back of my hand.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by KeithW »

Alok147 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 21:16 It would make sense for them to upgrade it (they need to add hard shoulders in), to avoid confusion. If someone wasn't legally allowed to drive on motorways, they shouldn't be 'tricked' into going on a motorway. Fair enough, you are warned, but for all intents and purposes, beyond junction 1, you're on the M6 or M1.

I guess they could do something weird and make it a secretive motorway (I.e. put a motorway sign board up without a number). It would imply that you're getting onto the motorway. Basically, what I'm suggesting is a 6 mile slip road! It would end up a bit like the secretive A14(M)/A604(M) by Huntington!
There is in fact a refuge with an SOS phone layby just short of the M6/M1. If you get that far and call them they will escort you off onto the Rugby Road here.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40670 ... 6656?hl=en

This is far from the only all purpose road that flows onto a motorway. The A1(M) at Blyth comes to mind although there is an escape road there you still have to read the signs. Similarly the A19/A68 flows on the A1(M) and you have to follow the signs and turn off or you will end up on the motorway and they far less explicit than at Blyth or A14.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.15585 ... 6656?hl=en
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by Vierwielen »

One of the minor problems with making the M6 and A14 a single road is that of locationmarkers. Location markers on the M6 have London as their reference point and in practice run from km 133 (at Rugby) to km 503 (Scottish border). The A14 is 211 km in length, with the reference point at Rugby. This gives a total length of the M6 and A14 of 584 km. This makes it impossible for the A14 and M6 to have "joined up" marker posts, unless the marker posts on both were overhauled.
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Re: Why isn't the A14 between the M6 and junction one a motorway?

Post by wrinkly »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 15:32 One of the minor problems with making the M6 and A14 a single road is that of locationmarkers. Location markers on the M6 have London as their reference point and in practice run from km 133 (at Rugby) to km 503 (Scottish border). The A14 is 211 km in length, with the reference point at Rugby. This gives a total length of the M6 and A14 of 584 km. This makes it impossible for the A14 and M6 to have "joined up" marker posts, unless the marker posts on both were overhauled.
You wouldn't need to change all the posts on both. You could just change those on the A14, for example to start from 600. There would then be a discontinuity at Catthorpe, but it wouldn't be the first on a single-numbered motorway.

Not that I'm advocating renaming the A14.
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