Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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Micro The Maniac
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

JackieRoads wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:43 Is it possible that when the A1(M) up to Newcastle is completed, will the M1 be extended north of Hook Moor and the rest the M10, as well ending on Scratchwood if possible? I'd just prefer the roundabout to have the services and the M10.
At least, if the parallel LAR is returned to A1, it'll be continuous all the way :evil: :twisted:
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Stevie D »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 16:48At least, if the parallel LAR is returned to A1, it'll be continuous all the way :evil: :twisted:
Apart from the gap between J49 and J50 :stir: not to mention the question of what happens north of J56!
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 14:13
...

We need to work towards redesignating some of our super strategic all-purpose duals as "car sign" expressways and if this requires building parallel NMU routes so be it. If we get this right, we will have a high quality motorway and expressway network covering at least 3,000 miles. These routes could have roundabouts but no otherwise at-grade junctions; for example the A449 from the M50 to M4, barring the obvious gap at Monmouth is a European "car sign" road already in build quality. Likewise the A465, and roads like the A2, A27, A180 could be the same.
I'm not 100% sure of the benefit of "car sign" expressways over simply declaring a road to be a motorway (whether M-numbered or AxM numbered) in the UK context.

AFAICS the main benefit of this in countries like France is that a differing standard of road requires a different default speed limit.
This road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.21781 ... 8192?hl=en
...is assumed to have an 130 km/h speed limit
But this road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.21874 ... 8192?hl=en
...is assumed to have an 110 km/h limit

Whereas in the UK, with our relatively slow Motorway speed limit, both of these roads would be assumed to have a 70mph speed limit (for cars):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.46182 ... 8192?hl=en
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.20304 ... 8192?hl=en

I suppose another benefit is that this allows sections of Route Nationale with differing standards to keep the same number, without having them interrupted by sections of "A" Autoroute.
But the UK already has a solution for this: AxM Motorways.

I'm aware this probably won't happen, but unless we are going to raise the default Motorway speed limit, there seems no obvious disadvantage to me of classifying any route that might qualify as an expressway type route in a European country, as a Motorway in the UK.

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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jgharston »

jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 15:58 A barrier could be erected to separate the human driven vehicles and the auto-lane.
But then how would you get on and off the motorway?
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jgharston »

JackieRoads wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 18:04
jgharston wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 14:02 Ooo, you're new here aren't you? :) That argument is in the next room. :laugh:
Hahaha, no.
The literal last time a piece of motorway was built goes to the A1(M), literally I seriously need to see a M1 extension :D
I agree that the A1(M) north of Hook Moor should be M1, with the LAR A168/A6055/A167 becoming the A1, but south of Hook Moor the M1 should remain the M1 and the A1(M) the A1(M).
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Osthagen »

jgharston wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 00:34 I agree that the A1(M) north of Hook Moor should be M1, with the LAR A168/A6055/A167 becoming the A1, but south of Hook Moor the M1 should remain the M1 and the A1(M) the A1(M).
I would instead have the M1 follow the M18 and A1(M) north of M1 J32, providing of course that you substantially improve M18 J2 before doing so, because this is actually the quickest route from the NE to the M1 south of Sheffield (and vice versa).

If you did that, the A1 number could be deployed with little difficulty on the A19 for pretty much its entirety, a route perhaps better suiting the number, regaining its original course north of Seaton Burn.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

jgharston wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 13:57
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 Looking to the future (I'd estimate 20-30 years) I'd imagine there will need to be roads that only automated vehicles can use. This would allow increased capacity using the same road space at higher speeds and safer.
I'd advocate it to be the other way around: it needs to be that automatic vehicles are only allowed on certain roads. Which, I would advocate, are the current motorways.

Unlike the USA where the majority of automated vehicle development is taking place, Motorways are specifically restricted and controlled roads, with specific controlled layout and structure, and importantly being *NOT* public highways. Current automated vehicle development is stymied by having to try and develop vehicles that can cope with being on the public highway along with all the uncontrolled content of the public highway. Pedestrians, idiots, cyclists, idiots, prams, idiots, more idiots.

There is an old SciFi story I read years ago that I can't remember the title of. I remember a section which went something like: He pulled out onto the main road, once the autodrive bleeped to confirm it was tracking the road, he slipped the car into automatic drive, slipped the seat back and started dozing.

Rather than there be roads specifically for autocars, autocars should be be specifically only be for motorways.
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 I'd imagine it could start by making current motorways automated only,
To clarify: not make motorways automated-only, but make automated motorway-only.
Most freeways in the United States are not open to all traffic. It is true there is no default nationwide Interstate set of rules, equivalent to those for Motorways in the UK, or motorways in most European nations. The Interstate shield symbol is purely a direction sign, and indicates no restrictions. This is because traffic laws, including speed limits, are set by individual US States.

Nonetheless most states restrict the types of traffic that can use freeways, regardless of whether they are Interstates.

Here is an example of a typical highway on-ramp (as they call it) restriction sign:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.65065 ... 6656?hl=en
These are typically worded signs that define which types of traffic are prohibited.

In California they use "Freeway Entrance" signs instead:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@34.57010 ... 6656?hl=en
In general this prohibits non-motorised traffic, but cyclists are allowed to use the shoulder of some rural freeways in California, where there is no reasonable alternative route.

Texas does not seem to actually sign the entrance to their freeways:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@29.83915 ... 6656?hl=en
...but their freeways are typical paralleled by frontage roads on both sides, either two-way, or one-way, which provide direct access to the freeway. So their may be some local law requiring cyclists etc. to use those roads instead.

In general I would say that it is actually the UK which is unusual in having such a large percentage of our roads be technically "all purpose" roads that are open to all traffic. Most of our long distance dual-carriageway, or mostly dual-carriageway routes such as the A3, A12, A303 etc. would be motorway type routes in most other 1st world countries, and would have some type of traffic restrictions on them.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by NICK 647063 »

Osthagen wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 01:39
jgharston wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 00:34 I agree that the A1(M) north of Hook Moor should be M1, with the LAR A168/A6055/A167 becoming the A1, but south of Hook Moor the M1 should remain the M1 and the A1(M) the A1(M).
I would instead have the M1 follow the M18 and A1(M) north of M1 J32, providing of course that you substantially improve M18 J2 before doing so, because this is actually the quickest route from the NE to the M1 south of Sheffield (and vice versa).

If you did that, the A1 number could be deployed with little difficulty on the A19 for pretty much its entirety, a route perhaps better suiting the number, regaining its original course north of Seaton Burn.
Would that be the A168 and A19 route? which makes sense renumbering the A19 south of Thirsk to A1 would seem crazy....
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by M19 »

I wonder if the title of this thread should be:

Will we ever see fit for purpose new roads again?

Roads that should be motorways are built as dual carriageways.

The busiest stretches of motorways we have are losing their hard shoulders.

Bypasses that should be dual are not.

Tie-ins of new roads to existing are awful. Instead of free flow connections, policy seems to be overloading junctions that are already overloaded that more lights and queuing space simply will not fix. M1 J13 is a nominee in this respect.

Other local schemes that started life as bypasses are being paid for by developers and housing growth funding and as such are anything but bypasses - underengineered nightmares littered with roundabouts with artificially low speed limits are typical. Yes they may be promoted as “development routes” to “unlock growth” as it is claimed, but they are essentially treated as poorly designed bypasses, that ought to be dualled with few GSJs.

All of this adds up to a failure to design roads that are fit for purpose. It’s very frustrating that not enough people are speaking out on this to government. Nothing from highway engineers, many who will have worked on far more ambitious schemes in the Middle East and elsewhere with more foresight and strategic planning. Similarly, nothing from the roads lobby - does such a lobby exist anymore, or road user or logistics groups.

It seems that all the pandering goes to the environmental lobby, who still remain so, despite the dumbing down - hence just be up front, honest about what really needs to be done to make the highway network fit for purpose.

Is there anyone around with vision and courage anymore to mount some pressure against the evermore creeping in the decline of decent road design standards?
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Steven »

M19 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 18:45 Roads that should be motorways are built as dual carriageways.
Errr, the vast majority of motorways are dual carriageways? Or do you mean "all purpose" rather than "dual carriageway"?
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by M19 »

Steven wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 18:49
M19 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 18:45 Roads that should be motorways are built as dual carriageways.
Errr, the vast majority of motorways are dual carriageways? Or do you mean "all purpose" rather than "dual carriageway"?
Pedantics aside you know what I mean. Since you might be unsure need the benefit of an explanation it’s dual carriageways subject to motorway regulations and designated as such which are built as such as all purpose dual carriageways without motorway restrictions.

There, hope I fixed that for you!
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Osthagen wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 01:39 If you did that, the A1 number could be deployed with little difficulty on the A19 for pretty much its entirety, a route perhaps better suiting the number, regaining its original course north of Seaton Burn.
I'm not sure the A19 from Doncaster to Thirsk warrants the A1 moniker.

The A168/A19 from Dishforth could...
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by solocle »

JRN wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 15:49
jgharston wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 13:57
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 Looking to the future (I'd estimate 20-30 years) I'd imagine there will need to be roads that only automated vehicles can use. This would allow increased capacity using the same road space at higher speeds and safer.
I'd advocate it to be the other way around: it needs to be that automatic vehicles are only allowed on certain roads. Which, I would advocate, are the current motorways.

Unlike the USA where the majority of automated vehicle development is taking place, Motorways are specifically restricted and controlled roads, with specific controlled layout and structure, and importantly being *NOT* public highways. Current automated vehicle development is stymied by having to try and develop vehicles that can cope with being on the public highway along with all the uncontrolled content of the public highway. Pedestrians, idiots, cyclists, idiots, prams, idiots, more idiots.

There is an old SciFi story I read years ago that I can't remember the title of. I remember a section which went something like: He pulled out onto the main road, once the autodrive bleeped to confirm it was tracking the road, he slipped the car into automatic drive, slipped the seat back and started dozing.

Rather than there be roads specifically for autocars, autocars should be be specifically only be for motorways.
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 I'd imagine it could start by making current motorways automated only,
To clarify: not make motorways automated-only, but make automated motorway-only.
Most freeways in the United States are not open to all traffic. It is true there is no default nationwide Interstate set of rules, equivalent to those for Motorways in the UK, or motorways in most European nations. The Interstate shield symbol is purely a direction sign, and indicates no restrictions. This is because traffic laws, including speed limits, are set by individual US States.

Nonetheless most states restrict the types of traffic that can use freeways, regardless of whether they are Interstates.

Here is an example of a typical highway on-ramp (as they call it) restriction sign:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.65065 ... 6656?hl=en
These are typically worded signs that define which types of traffic are prohibited.

In California they use "Freeway Entrance" signs instead:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@34.57010 ... 6656?hl=en
In general this prohibits non-motorised traffic, but cyclists are allowed to use the shoulder of some rural freeways in California, where there is no reasonable alternative route.

Texas does not seem to actually sign the entrance to their freeways:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@29.83915 ... 6656?hl=en
...but their freeways are typical paralleled by frontage roads on both sides, either two-way, or one-way, which provide direct access to the freeway. So their may be some local law requiring cyclists etc. to use those roads instead.

In general I would say that it is actually the UK which is unusual in having such a large percentage of our roads be technically "all purpose" roads that are open to all traffic. Most of our long distance dual-carriageway, or mostly dual-carriageway routes such as the A3, A12, A303 etc. would be motorway type routes in most other 1st world countries, and would have some type of traffic restrictions on them.
If you go just up the ramp from that California example, you'll see the standard prohibition sign. Which has been modified to allow cyclists, but not pedestrians or (mopeds?).

As for Texas, Texas are big on their FREEDOM. Apparently Texas DOT haven't prohibited cyclists from any freeways, although AIUI TX-130 (which is the toll road with an 85 mph speed limit) does. Can't find any signs, though.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Osthagen »

NICK 647063 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 18:05
Osthagen wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 01:39 I would instead have the M1 follow the M18 and A1(M) north of M1 J32, providing of course that you substantially improve M18 J2 before doing so, because this is actually the quickest route from the NE to the M1 south of Sheffield (and vice versa).

If you did that, the A1 number could be deployed with little difficulty on the A19 for pretty much its entirety, a route perhaps better suiting the number, regaining its original course north of Seaton Burn.
Would that be the A168 and A19 route? which makes sense renumbering the A19 south of Thirsk to A1 would seem crazy....
I was writing with the intention of pretty much numbering the entire A19 from Donacaster (through which, the A19 makes up part of the A1's older course) northwards. Indeed, A1 might seem like a glorified number for the dirt track that is the most southerly 60 or so miles of A19, but its certainly no less worthy than some sections of road already designated as "A1".

In an ideal world, the A19 between York and Thirsk would have been dualled years ago anyway.
Micro The Maniac wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 20:38
Osthagen wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 01:39 If you did that, the A1 number could be deployed with little difficulty on the A19 for pretty much its entirety, a route perhaps better suiting the number, regaining its original course north of Seaton Burn.
I'm not sure the A19 from Doncaster to Thirsk warrants the A1 moniker.

The A168/A19 from Dishforth could...
See my above remarks on the road south of Thirsk.

To be honest, simply using the A19/A168 for the A1 route would work just fine. My intent behind using the A1 number for the A19 was to ensure the number was still used for a major route, which would not have been the case if the number had simply been bestowed on the LAR.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Enceladus »

Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Bryn666 »

Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
The Dutch sold motorway widenings by saying they'd remove through traffic from local roads.

Which they have. It's extremely tedious to cross the Netherlands in a car without using a motorway now.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Ritchie333 »

Agree about A1 Redhouse to Darrington. Traffic still comes up the M18 to join the A1(M) at Wadworth, and having an under-capacity and dangerous D2 road between two motorways is a series of accidents waiting to happen. The last time I drove up this way, it was mildly terrifying trying to overtake HGVs.

As Enceladus has hinted at, Ireland's motorway building has slowed and stopped, having caught up with the UK significantly in the last 15 years. I can't see any more of the N25 being upgraded, and I'm not sure what's going to happen to the N20. It means Ireland's second city has got one decent road (the M7 / M8), one semi-decent (N25) and the rest is rubbish.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

The A14 from (New) Ellington to Girton is surely a "motorway in all but name", with prohibitions on cyclists, pedestrians, horse-drawn carriages, horsies themselves, bikes under 50 cc - and a mystery class that's been greyed out in this view:

https://goo.gl/maps/3czYoty7bLq5y6C2A

And then you have the "motorway in all but name" from Junction 1 to the M6 proper at Catthorpe:

https://goo.gl/maps/vJ8eVJjhrQYKayXo9
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
Yes it's a shame. Though I would see NIMBYs are as much to blame as the green lobby. Environmental concerns ought to start going away within 15 yrs or so anyway.

Our motorway network is so much smaller than those of peer nations. Or even not peer nations. Poland's network is now rather larger than ours. I wonder - if the public knew how bad the situation is in the UK vs comparable nations if they would support an upgrade plan?

It's easy to think that (non-motorway) dual-carriageways serve much the same purpose, but in reality they are more dangerous, and tend to have many negative features such as lack of complete grade separation, private property accesses etc.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Bryn666 »

JRN wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:53
Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
Yes it's a shame. Though I would see NIMBYs are as much to blame as the green lobby. Environmental concerns ought to start going away within 15 yrs or so anyway.

Our motorway network is so much smaller than those of peer nations. Or even not peer nations. Poland's network is now rather larger than ours. I wonder - if the public knew how bad the situation is in the UK vs comparable nations if they would support an upgrade plan?

It's easy to think that (non-motorway) dual-carriageways serve much the same purpose, but in reality they are more dangerous, and tend to have many negative features such as lack of complete grade separation, private property accesses etc.
The reality is people don't care. They complain about traffic but have no desire to undertake the steps required to reduce it - which is either dis-incentivising driving or buying up their houses to widen the road (which will fill up in a few years anyway thanks to Braess's paradox). British people want everything for nothing, and they seem offended when people point out everything has a cost.

Transport consistently falls outside the top 10 concerns for voters. Dog **** and potholes, that's where the votes are, not costly infrastructure projects (see also HS2 for the same effect in motion).
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