Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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Ritchie333
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Ritchie333 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:58Transport consistently falls outside the top 10 concerns for voters. Dog **** and potholes, that's where the votes are, not costly infrastructure projects (see also HS2 for the same effect in motion).
Ironically, a key reason for moving to Ashford was because I knew HS1 was coming.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Bryn666 »

Ritchie333 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 17:00
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:58Transport consistently falls outside the top 10 concerns for voters. Dog **** and potholes, that's where the votes are, not costly infrastructure projects (see also HS2 for the same effect in motion).
Ironically, a key reason for moving to Ashford was because I knew HS1 was coming.
I suspect Ashford is now very attractive as a commuter base to London because of HS1. Or, it will have been before recent, uh, events.

One thing we will consistently clap like seals for is the rising of house prices so nobody can afford to buy one. What's the point of living in a £700k shoebox if you can't sell it?
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Ritchie333 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 17:04I suspect Ashford is now very attractive as a commuter base to London because of HS1. Or, it will have been before recent, uh, events.
Spot on. This furniture store directly opposite Ashford International is being demolished and having a bucketload of "desirable" apartments built there instead, which all the locals are complaining that they can't afford.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

solocle wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 09:26
JRN wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 15:49
jgharston wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 13:57
I'd advocate it to be the other way around: it needs to be that automatic vehicles are only allowed on certain roads. Which, I would advocate, are the current motorways.

Unlike the USA where the majority of automated vehicle development is taking place, Motorways are specifically restricted and controlled roads, with specific controlled layout and structure, and importantly being *NOT* public highways. Current automated vehicle development is stymied by having to try and develop vehicles that can cope with being on the public highway along with all the uncontrolled content of the public highway. Pedestrians, idiots, cyclists, idiots, prams, idiots, more idiots.

There is an old SciFi story I read years ago that I can't remember the title of. I remember a section which went something like: He pulled out onto the main road, once the autodrive bleeped to confirm it was tracking the road, he slipped the car into automatic drive, slipped the seat back and started dozing.

Rather than there be roads specifically for autocars, autocars should be be specifically only be for motorways.


To clarify: not make motorways automated-only, but make automated motorway-only.
Most freeways in the United States are not open to all traffic. It is true there is no default nationwide Interstate set of rules, equivalent to those for Motorways in the UK, or motorways in most European nations. The Interstate shield symbol is purely a direction sign, and indicates no restrictions. This is because traffic laws, including speed limits, are set by individual US States.

Nonetheless most states restrict the types of traffic that can use freeways, regardless of whether they are Interstates.

Here is an example of a typical highway on-ramp (as they call it) restriction sign:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.65065 ... 6656?hl=en
These are typically worded signs that define which types of traffic are prohibited.

In California they use "Freeway Entrance" signs instead:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@34.57010 ... 6656?hl=en
In general this prohibits non-motorised traffic, but cyclists are allowed to use the shoulder of some rural freeways in California, where there is no reasonable alternative route.

Texas does not seem to actually sign the entrance to their freeways:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@29.83915 ... 6656?hl=en
...but their freeways are typical paralleled by frontage roads on both sides, either two-way, or one-way, which provide direct access to the freeway. So their may be some local law requiring cyclists etc. to use those roads instead.

In general I would say that it is actually the UK which is unusual in having such a large percentage of our roads be technically "all purpose" roads that are open to all traffic. Most of our long distance dual-carriageway, or mostly dual-carriageway routes such as the A3, A12, A303 etc. would be motorway type routes in most other 1st world countries, and would have some type of traffic restrictions on them.
If you go just up the ramp from that California example, you'll see the standard prohibition sign. Which has been modified to allow cyclists, but not pedestrians or (mopeds?).

As for Texas, Texas are big on their FREEDOM. Apparently Texas DOT haven't prohibited cyclists from any freeways, although AIUI TX-130 (which is the toll road with an 85 mph speed limit) does. Can't find any signs, though.

Huh. You're quite right. I wonder why they would want to exclude motor-drive cycles but not bicycles?
I guess I was wrong that CA only used the "Freeway Entrance" signs.

On the plus side it supports my original point that US freeways are not generally rights of way for all traffic, even if there is no "standard" set of freeway or interstate restrictions.

Interesting that Texas allows NMUs on freeways, though I imagine they have few, and like I say there are usually frontage roads.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by ais523 »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:46And then you have the "motorway in all but name" from Junction 1 to the M6 proper at Catthorpe:
There are multiple parking places along that stretch of road, and they seem to serve a useful purpose. That's one considerable difference between A14 J0-1 and a motorway, and it's a good argument for avoiding adding motorway restrictions to the stretch of road in question.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Scratchwood »

JRN wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:53
Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
Yes it's a shame. Though I would see NIMBYs are as much to blame as the green lobby. Environmental concerns ought to start going away within 15 yrs or so anyway.

Our motorway network is so much smaller than those of peer nations. Or even not peer nations. Poland's network is now rather larger than ours. I wonder - if the public knew how bad the situation is in the UK vs comparable nations if they would support an upgrade plan?

It's easy to think that (non-motorway) dual-carriageways serve much the same purpose, but in reality they are more dangerous, and tend to have many negative features such as lack of complete grade separation, private property accesses etc.
Are the numbers comparable between different countries though, as each country has its own standards and other countries may classify as (their equivalent of motorways) roads that we don't consider good enough?

We have many roads which in other countries would be called motorways, if you changed the colour overnight then magically our road network would look "better"
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by SBRoxMan »

Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
The A50 is arguably proof of why we need more motorways instead of motorway-standard A roads. If the A50 had been built as the M64 like it was supposed to, then ironically there probably wouldn't have been much need for the M6 Toll later down the line
Last edited by SBRoxMan on Wed May 19, 2021 12:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Herned »

Scratchwood wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:32 We have many roads which in other countries would be called motorways, if you changed the colour overnight then magically our road network would look "better"
We have bits of many roads that could be motorways, very few of our dual carriageways go long distances without some substandard feature. The A14 and the A34 still have rubbish bits, the A50 has inexplicable roundabouts in the middle, the A1 is terrible for a fair distance etc.

The maps on Via Michelin are good, as they distinguish between motorway equivalent DCs and rubbish DCs. If you look at that at the sort of scale where London and Bristol are viewed at the same time, you can see just how sparse our network of proper DCs/motorways is, compared to e.g. Brittany
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:58 They complain about traffic but have no desire to undertake the steps required to reduce it - which is either dis-incentivising driving or buying up their houses to widen the road (which will fill up in a few years anyway thanks to Braess's paradox).
Braess's paradox requires that we have proper bypasses, with limited access junctions - preventing hoping on/off to get from one end of town to the other. A strategic separation of through and local traffic.

Where as, typically we have the worst of all worlds: distribution roads with all movement junctions, designed to encourage and aid further development, bringing extra traffic. In many ways, the M25 from Chertsey to the M4 is an example of too many junctions in action!

The status quo results in clogged roads, with the consequential economic and environmental damage that this causes.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:58 They complain about traffic but have no desire to undertake the steps required to reduce it - which is either dis-incentivising driving or buying up their houses to widen the road (which will fill up in a few years anyway thanks to Braess's paradox).
Braess's paradox requires that we have proper bypasses, with limited access junctions - preventing hoping on/off to get from one end of town to the other. A strategic separation of through and local traffic.

Where as, typically we have the worst of all worlds: distribution roads with all movement junctions, designed to encourage and aid further development, bringing extra traffic. In many ways, the M25 from Chertsey to the M4 is an example of too many junctions in action!

The status quo results in clogged roads, with the consequential economic and environmental damage that this causes.
And there's your problem, central government don't fund roads that help move people. They fund roads that help housebuilders stick more unimaginative car dependent box estates next to them.

The Oxford-Cambridge expressway was purely intended to just do that. Take a look at what's being built around Milton Keynes - car dependent box estates - and stretch that all the way to Oxford. No wonder locals were, to coin a phrase, widdled off.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by solocle »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:58 They complain about traffic but have no desire to undertake the steps required to reduce it - which is either dis-incentivising driving or buying up their houses to widen the road (which will fill up in a few years anyway thanks to Braess's paradox).
Braess's paradox requires that we have proper bypasses, with limited access junctions - preventing hoping on/off to get from one end of town to the other. A strategic separation of through and local traffic.

Where as, typically we have the worst of all worlds: distribution roads with all movement junctions, designed to encourage and aid further development, bringing extra traffic. In many ways, the M25 from Chertsey to the M4 is an example of too many junctions in action!

The status quo results in clogged roads, with the consequential economic and environmental damage that this causes.
But using Oxford as an example, motor traffic really ought use the ring road, rather than driving through the centre of town. Problem is, the ring road is constituted of long distance routes like the A34 and A40. The road building answer would be an M34 or whatever that bypassed Oxford, I doubt that the A40 is enough of a through route to justify that. Maybe some ramp metering type thing that sends 50% of the traffic one way around the ring road, and 50% the other way?
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 17:04
I suspect Ashford is now very attractive as a commuter base to London because of HS1. Or, it will have been before recent, uh, events.

One thing we will consistently clap like seals for is the rising of house prices so nobody can afford to buy one. What's the point of living in a £700k shoebox if you can't sell it?
People were commuting to London from Ashford long before HS1 was built. Back in 1979 when I was living in Kent Ashford was already well established commuter town.

That said I don't doubt faster trains were an added attraction just as the ECML fast trains from Peterborough, Sandy and St Neots are. As for house prices 700k will buy a rather nice 4 bedroom detached house in Ashford and you can get a decent 3 bed semi for around 300k

That is about the same price range as the village in South Cambs where I lived and my neighbour regularly commuted to the city of London from Biggleswade.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Herned »

solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:37 But using Oxford as an example, motor traffic really ought use the ring road, rather than driving through the centre of town. Problem is, the ring road is constituted of long distance routes like the A34 and A40. The road building answer would be an M34 or whatever that bypassed Oxford, I doubt that the A40 is enough of a through route to justify that. Maybe some ramp metering type thing that sends 50% of the traffic one way around the ring road, and 50% the other way?
The sensible answer is to build roads with collector/distributor lanes, so if the A34 Oxford bypass were rebuilt you would have one exit from the through lanes at the south/north end of the urban section, and then all other connections would be to the local lanes only. Maidstone has this, I'm not sure of any other UK example though
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Bryn666 »

Herned wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 14:27
solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:37 But using Oxford as an example, motor traffic really ought use the ring road, rather than driving through the centre of town. Problem is, the ring road is constituted of long distance routes like the A34 and A40. The road building answer would be an M34 or whatever that bypassed Oxford, I doubt that the A40 is enough of a through route to justify that. Maybe some ramp metering type thing that sends 50% of the traffic one way around the ring road, and 50% the other way?
The sensible answer is to build roads with collector/distributor lanes, so if the A34 Oxford bypass were rebuilt you would have one exit from the through lanes at the south/north end of the urban section, and then all other connections would be to the local lanes only. Maidstone has this, I'm not sure of any other UK example though
M60 J6-8, but that's more about weaving lengths than any segregation of flows.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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Herned wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 14:27
solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:37 But using Oxford as an example, motor traffic really ought use the ring road, rather than driving through the centre of town. Problem is, the ring road is constituted of long distance routes like the A34 and A40. The road building answer would be an M34 or whatever that bypassed Oxford, I doubt that the A40 is enough of a through route to justify that. Maybe some ramp metering type thing that sends 50% of the traffic one way around the ring road, and 50% the other way?
The sensible answer is to build roads with collector/distributor lanes, so if the A34 Oxford bypass were rebuilt you would have one exit from the through lanes at the south/north end of the urban section, and then all other connections would be to the local lanes only. Maidstone has this, I'm not sure of any other UK example though
I have in fact cycled past the very first UK example at Almondsbury.
Capture.jpg
The problem with that idea is that it produces a monstrosity, and I've cycled the Oxford section of the A34 in the past - it's constrained, particularly through Botley.

No, far better to keep the ring road as is, and build the bypass elswhere, retaining the current A34 to link the two pieces of infrastructure.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Herned »

solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 14:59 The problem with that idea is that it produces a monstrosity, and I've cycled the Oxford section of the A34 in the past - it's constrained, particularly through Botley.
I agree it's not the best solution for Oxford, but if I were king that is how the M25 would be redesigned.

And... Oxford International Airport???
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by KeithW »

solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 13:37
But using Oxford as an example, motor traffic really ought use the ring road, rather than driving through the centre of town. Problem is, the ring road is constituted of long distance routes like the A34 and A40. The road building answer would be an M34 or whatever that bypassed Oxford, I doubt that the A40 is enough of a through route to justify that. Maybe some ramp metering type thing that sends 50% of the traffic one way around the ring road, and 50% the other way?
This of course why the M40 was completed as it is. The original section built as D2(M) in the 1960's terminated on the A40 Wheatley bypass at J4. This was always seen as a temporary terminus. Originally the thinking had been along the lines of upgrading the A40/A43 route to Birmingham but the overloading of the M1/M6 route lead to a radical rethink and the M40 headed north instead to meet the M42 south of Birmingham on an alignment close to the A41 which has now been downgraded to the B4100. From the M42 traffic could join the M5 south west of Birmingham. What caught everyone on the hop was the massive expansion of the Oxford conurbation.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by solocle »

Herned wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 15:40
solocle wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 14:59 The problem with that idea is that it produces a monstrosity, and I've cycled the Oxford section of the A34 in the past - it's constrained, particularly through Botley.
I agree it's not the best solution for Oxford, but if I were king that is how the M25 would be redesigned.

And... Oxford International Airport???
It's better than what they call themselves, "London Oxford Airport" :|
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

ais523 wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 19:18
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:46And then you have the "motorway in all but name" from Junction 1 to the M6 proper at Catthorpe:
There are multiple parking places along that stretch of road, and they seem to serve a useful purpose. That's one considerable difference between A14 J0-1 and a motorway, and it's a good argument for avoiding adding motorway restrictions to the stretch of road in question.
IDK, personally I think that laybys are bad. They don't provide proper facilities such as toilets, and often have v. short entry and exit slips.
If we want to move towards more "Expressway" style roads, then I think we should provide proper off-carriageway rest area type facilities like they have in other countries, and relegate existing laybys to being Emergency Refuge Areas.
Personally I see no reason if this were done why the A14 J0-1 (and actually much of the A14) could not be re-designated as a Motorway, even without hard shoulders. If ALR smart motorways meet the standard now...
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JRN »

Scratchwood wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:32
JRN wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 16:53
Enceladus wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 15:44 Given the power and influence of the "green" lobby in the UK (and increasing so here in Ireland too), unfortunately I doubt we will see much - if any - new sections of motorway in England and Wales for the foreseeable decade at least. Widening and upgrading the existing 1958-1990 network of motorways will of course continue.

It shouldn't and doesn't have to be this way. The UK government need to start "selling" the benefits of motorways to the general public again. There are many routes - the A14, A50, A12 for starters - that really should be motorway.
Yes it's a shame. Though I would see NIMBYs are as much to blame as the green lobby. Environmental concerns ought to start going away within 15 yrs or so anyway.

Our motorway network is so much smaller than those of peer nations. Or even not peer nations. Poland's network is now rather larger than ours. I wonder - if the public knew how bad the situation is in the UK vs comparable nations if they would support an upgrade plan?

It's easy to think that (non-motorway) dual-carriageways serve much the same purpose, but in reality they are more dangerous, and tend to have many negative features such as lack of complete grade separation, private property accesses etc.
Are the numbers comparable between different countries though, as each country has its own standards and other countries may classify as (their equivalent of motorways) roads that we don't consider good enough?

We have many roads which in other countries would be called motorways, if you changed the colour overnight then magically our road network would look "better"
I guess it depends on whether you're talking about quality or capacity, and if quality, what qualities you value.
But in general I would disagree with what I believe you're saying.

Re Capacity:
European long-distance motorways are more likely to be D2m than ours (I don't think Spain has a single long distance D3M motorway), but that's a function of having a denser network, often lower-density population, and in the case of countries like France and Spain, a very different "layout", for instance in Spain the other major cities are all arranged around Madrid in different directions, there isn't a "line" of cities that would justify needing a particularly wide motorway in the same way that, say, the M1 hits so many major conurbations.
Notably Italy, a much more "linear" country, has fewer miles/kms of motorway than France or Spain (but still much more than us) but more of its long distance motorways are D3M.

Re Quality:
I have to disagree with your point.
Standards vary a little from country to country, but euro motorways are motorways in every sense of the word.
(Fully grade-separated dual-carriageway roads with no private property accesses, no footpaths, no LILOs, no laybys, and typically with hard shoulders and rest areas)
Our major dual-carriageway routes are for the most part a long way short of that.
There are some exceptions, such as the new A14 between Cambridge and Huntingdon, which although it does not have hard shoulders, is otherwise a fully grade separated expressway. It does not have private property accesses, does not have an adjacent footpath / cyclepath, does not have laybys (it has ERAs) and even has traffic restrictions in place!
But this is the exception not the rule.

To make things worse, many European countries actually do have some kind of "expressway" standard type road beneath their actual motorways, and for the most part these are better in many ways that British dual-carriageways. These routes are typical fully grade separated, do not have private property accesses, and have traffic restrictions in place. They just don't meet the normal motorway standards for, like, sightlines or hard-shoulder width or sliproad length or whatever.
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