Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

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SBRoxMan
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Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by SBRoxMan »

And firstly, by this I don't mean anything like the A1077(M), or motorway upgrades of existing A roads

But in all seriousness, I've long been wondering, is there any actual chance of getting more brand new motorways in the future? There's plenty of areas of the UK that could really benefit from them, yet right now the government seems too afraid to refer to any new road as anything more than an expressway
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Osthagen »

This is actually a very good question.

It's hard to say, is the answer. 2002 was the last time a completely new Mx motorway opened in Britain (that was the M6 Toll). Since then, it does not look like any entirely new routes have entered the stages of serious consideration.

Although new motorways, as well as a robust overhaul of our all-purpose road system (yes, A470, I'm looking at you), are things that are most necessary, the fact is that government policy makers in this day and age are essentially feudal serfs to the 'green' lobby, who'd delightedly have Britain be a third-world country when it comes to travel. This makes new motorway corridors extremely difficult to get past the planning stages.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jervi »

Yes and No
In the near future its unlikely we will see any roads being designated with motorway restrictions, instead opting to use a confusing mess of TROs which makes the road so much worse than just slapping motorway regs on it (there are many threads on here discussing these reasons).

Looking to the future (I'd estimate 20-30 years) I'd imagine there will need to be roads that only automated vehicles can use. This would allow increased capacity using the same road space at higher speeds and safer.
To make this happen there would need to be an extensive network of roads that only allow these automated vehicles as human drivers are not predictable, and putting NMUs into the mix of traffic would only make this worse.
I'd imagine it could start by making current motorways automated only, followed by re-designating other current roads to this new motorway regulations in conjunction with changes to those roads to accommodate NMUs and to support the technology required to make it an automated road.

That is at least what I believe "motorways" of the future will be. However these new "motorways" don't necessarily have to be dual carriageways, or conform to current geometrical standards since it will not be humans driving, so the "motorway" of the future may just be a 7m wide single carriageway running at 100+mph, kinda like the railway.

Only time will tell.
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SBRoxMan
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by SBRoxMan »

Osthagen wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:17 This is actually a very good question.

It's hard to say, is the answer. 2002 was the last time a completely new Mx motorway opened in Britain (that was the M6 Toll). Since then, it does not look like any entirely new routes have entered the stages of serious consideration.

Although new motorways, as well as a robust overhaul of our all-purpose road system (yes, A470, I'm looking at you), are things that are most necessary, the fact is that government policy makers in this day and age are essentially feudal serfs to the 'green' lobby, who'd delightedly have Britain be a third-world country when it comes to travel. This makes new motorway corridors extremely difficult to get past the planning stages.
Only new motorways I can think of outside of Scotland that got even close to planning were the M4 Newport bypass and the A14(M), and even that new Thames Estuary tunnel plan has already had its motorway status stripped from it

It's just so annoying to see potentially great road plans become expressways. The whole point of a motorway is speed, but when you take away the motorway designation, the "expressway" looks just like any of the other green A roads on the map
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

SBRoxMan wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:49 The whole point of a motorway is speed
This is the same mistake that many people make about new railways.

In both cases, speed is an aspect. But capacity is the real driving force.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Micro The Maniac »

SBRoxMan wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 23:55 is there any actual chance of getting more brand new motorways in the future?
TL/DR: No.

Evidence:
  • That Cambridge to Huntingdon remains A14 was a sign of things to come.
  • That the Lower Thames Crossing is to be an A road
  • Mention of even Expressways seems to have disappeared from the vocabulary
  • etc
I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43 I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
To be fair, the substantial amount of new A1(M) in Yorkshire represents a fair greater mileage of motorway than those lost.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by NICK 647063 »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:51
Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43 I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
To be fair, the substantial amount of new A1(M) in Yorkshire represents a fair greater mileage of motorway than those lost.
I think the new A1(M) in Yorkshire proves why not all road building is bad! It’s safer, plenty of new trees, it’s allowed old properties that were abandoned for decades to be repurposed and got rid of the ones that were eyesores, you have a pleasant LAR and it’s built as a proper motorway with hardshoulders.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JackieRoads »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 09:48
SouthWest Philip wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:51
Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43 I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
To be fair, the substantial amount of new A1(M) in Yorkshire represents a fair greater mileage of motorway than those lost.
I think the new A1(M) in Yorkshire proves why not all road building is bad! It’s safer, plenty of new trees, it’s allowed old properties that were abandoned for decades to be repurposed and got rid of the ones that were eyesores, you have a pleasant LAR and it’s built as a proper motorway with hardshoulders.
Is it possible that when the A1(M) up to Newcastle is completed, will the M1 be extended north of Hook Moor and the rest the M10, as well ending on Scratchwood if possible? I'd just prefer the roundabout to have the services and the M10.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by KeithW »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 09:48
SouthWest Philip wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:51
Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43 I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
To be fair, the substantial amount of new A1(M) in Yorkshire represents a fair greater mileage of motorway than those lost.
I think the new A1(M) in Yorkshire proves why not all road building is bad! It’s safer, plenty of new trees, it’s allowed old properties that were abandoned for decades to be repurposed and got rid of the ones that were eyesores, you have a pleasant LAR and it’s built as a proper motorway with hardshoulders.
Indeed but given how expensive land is in much of the UK I wonder just how transferrable that example is ? The population density in North Yorkshire, especially north of Wetherby, is pretty low and it was mainly built on relatively cheap agricultural land . The other problem is public opinion, Motorway seems to have become something of a toxic brand since the PR disaster that was the M3 at Winchester. I suspect this was why the DfT/HE tried to push the Expressway concept as an alternative.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JammyDodge »

The only "new" motorways I would expect will be constructed in my lifetime would be:
1) Completion of the A1 to motorway standards between London and Newcastle
2) Birmingham Western Orbital

"New" motorways that might be constructed in my lifetime; either as Mx or Ax(M):
1) M4 Newport bypass
2) M42 extension to the M1
3) M67 to the M1 via Woodhead
4) A1 Newcastle Western Orbital and extension to Scottish Border

"New" motorways that are highly unlikely in my lifetime:
1) A329(M) M25 link
2) M27 extension to Bournemouth
3) M56 extension into Wales as far as Holywell
4) M65 extension to the M1

*Lifetime is upto 80 years into the future

*EDIT: Word
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by KeithW »

JackieRoads wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:43
Is it possible that when the A1(M) up to Newcastle is completed, will the M1 be extended north of Hook Moor and the rest the M10, as well ending on Scratchwood if possible? I'd just prefer the roundabout to have the services and the M10.
The A1(M) runs all the way from Darrington to Gateshead now. The A1 Western bypass carries the A1 the rest of the way to North Brunton

At the southern end the A1M) ends at South Mimms and plans to reach Scratchwood were abandoned a very long time ago. There is a golf course between the A1 and M1 and golfers are not to be trifled with. Given the level of development around Stirling Corner its hard to see how it could be fitted in without demolition in any event.

The M10 will forever in my memory run from the M1 to the Park Street Roundabout. Had things gone otherwise it might have become part of the mighty Ringway 4 but it was not to be. If you want to resuse the number I would suggest upgrading the A19 from Dishforth , throught Teesside and Jarrow to Seaton Burn creating at last the fabled East Coast Motorway :)
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by SBRoxMan »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43
SBRoxMan wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 23:55 is there any actual chance of getting more brand new motorways in the future?
TL/DR: No.

Evidence:
  • That Cambridge to Huntingdon remains A14 was a sign of things to come.
  • That the Lower Thames Crossing is to be an A road
  • Mention of even Expressways seems to have disappeared from the vocabulary
  • etc
I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
Making the Lower Thames Crossing an A road was a terrible decision, but I see your point
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by JackieRoads »

SBRoxMan wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43
SBRoxMan wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 23:55 is there any actual chance of getting more brand new motorways in the future?
TL/DR: No.

Evidence:
  • That Cambridge to Huntingdon remains A14 was a sign of things to come.
  • That the Lower Thames Crossing is to be an A road
  • Mention of even Expressways seems to have disappeared from the vocabulary
  • etc
I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
Making the Lower Thames Crossing an A road was a terrible decision, but I see your point
Any chance, it should be the M22.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jgharston »

jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 Looking to the future (I'd estimate 20-30 years) I'd imagine there will need to be roads that only automated vehicles can use. This would allow increased capacity using the same road space at higher speeds and safer.
I'd advocate it to be the other way around: it needs to be that automatic vehicles are only allowed on certain roads. Which, I would advocate, are the current motorways.

Unlike the USA where the majority of automated vehicle development is taking place, Motorways are specifically restricted and controlled roads, with specific controlled layout and structure, and importantly being *NOT* public highways. Current automated vehicle development is stymied by having to try and develop vehicles that can cope with being on the public highway along with all the uncontrolled content of the public highway. Pedestrians, idiots, cyclists, idiots, prams, idiots, more idiots.

There is an old SciFi story I read years ago that I can't remember the title of. I remember a section which went something like: He pulled out onto the main road, once the autodrive bleeped to confirm it was tracking the road, he slipped the car into automatic drive, slipped the seat back and started dozing.

Rather than there be roads specifically for autocars, autocars should be be specifically only be for motorways.
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 I'd imagine it could start by making current motorways automated only,
To clarify: not make motorways automated-only, but make automated motorway-only.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jgharston »

JackieRoads wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:43 Is it possible that when the A1(M) up to Newcastle is completed, will the M1 be extended north of Hook Moor and the rest the M10, as well ending on Scratchwood if possible? I'd just prefer the roundabout to have the services and the M10.
Ooo, you're new here aren't you? :) That argument is in the next room. :laugh:
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by KeithW »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 08:43
TL/DR: No.

Evidence:
  • That Cambridge to Huntingdon remains A14 was a sign of things to come.
  • That the Lower Thames Crossing is to be an A road
  • Mention of even Expressways seems to have disappeared from the vocabulary
  • etc
I think we've lost more motorway than we've gained, in recent years - A329(M), A601(M), now M181 etc etc
The A14 doesnt go to Huntingdon any more, the old route was originally the A604 from the end of the M11 to the All purpose A1 at Brampton Hut, the A14 was the spur from Huntingdon to the A1 at Alconbury and is now the A1307. That was opened in 1979 and we have built a LOT of motorway since then including the A1(M) from Darrington to the Darlington bypass.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Bryn666 »

The only motorway in England I'd expect to happen in the next 30 years is Darrington to Red House on the A1(M). On safety grounds alone this needs to be done as a priority.

The A1 south of Doncaster has had all the roundabouts removed, it will be an expensive job to replace the low traffic central reserve gaps but low cost gap closures and traffic re-routed to adjacent GSJs is likely. I don't see the need to blue line this 75 mile gap at all, it's not needed.

The fabled Manchester-Sheffield route will never happen. The presence of the national park will make Twyford Down look like a picnic.

We need to work towards redesignating some of our super strategic all-purpose duals as "car sign" expressways and if this requires building parallel NMU routes so be it. If we get this right, we will have a high quality motorway and expressway network covering at least 3,000 miles. These routes could have roundabouts but no otherwise at-grade junctions; for example the A449 from the M50 to M4, barring the obvious gap at Monmouth is a European "car sign" road already in build quality. Likewise the A465, and roads like the A2, A27, A180 could be the same.
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by jervi »

jgharston wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 13:57
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 Looking to the future (I'd estimate 20-30 years) I'd imagine there will need to be roads that only automated vehicles can use. This would allow increased capacity using the same road space at higher speeds and safer.
I'd advocate it to be the other way around: it needs to be that automatic vehicles are only allowed on certain roads. Which, I would advocate, are the current motorways.

Unlike the USA where the majority of automated vehicle development is taking place, Motorways are specifically restricted and controlled roads, with specific controlled layout and structure, and importantly being *NOT* public highways. Current automated vehicle development is stymied by having to try and develop vehicles that can cope with being on the public highway along with all the uncontrolled content of the public highway. Pedestrians, idiots, cyclists, idiots, prams, idiots, more idiots.

There is an old SciFi story I read years ago that I can't remember the title of. I remember a section which went something like: He pulled out onto the main road, once the autodrive bleeped to confirm it was tracking the road, he slipped the car into automatic drive, slipped the seat back and started dozing.

Rather than there be roads specifically for autocars, autocars should be be specifically only be for motorways.
jervi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 00:27 I'd imagine it could start by making current motorways automated only,
To clarify: not make motorways automated-only, but make automated motorway-only.
I see where you are coming from,
I agree that any fully automated vehicles traveling faster than 5mph needs to be fully segregated from all other road users from prams to trams.
I am not saying that in 20-30 years time motorways will become "auto only" overnight, however parts may become auto only when there is enough demand.
It could start by making the outside lane "auto-only" with the remaining lanes used by human drivers. A barrier could be erected to separate the human driven vehicles and the auto-lane. An auto lane could run at a reduced width since it is controlled by computers and also run at a higher speed with vehicles closer together, snificantly increasing capacity & reducing journey times. Over time this would shift to the outside 2 lanes and then when the time comes in maybe 2050 all lanes of motorways would become auto-only.
Likewise a D2 arrangement could become a D1+D1 where needed before becoming a auto-only route (aka. motorway).

Purpose built S2s for auto-only vehicles could be built, and these would be designated as this new definition of "motorway".
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Re: Do you think we'll ever see new motorways in the UK again?

Post by Steven »

JammyDodge wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:16 2) Birmingham Western Orbital
It's just "Western Orbital". The Birmingham Western Orbital is the M5...
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