Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

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Skipsy
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Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Skipsy »

The stretch of Bushey Road (A298) between Martin Way (B286) and Grand Drive (B279) is now a 20 limit when it was a 40 not too long ago.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.40696 ... a=!5m1!1e1 (GSV hasn't shown the new speed limit since its only recently changed)
The road is a D2 (2 lane dual carriageway) with only a junction with a David Lloyds on it. It comes after the speed limit between Grand Drive (B279) and Shannon Corner Roundabout was reduced from 40mph to 30mph.
What justifies the halving of this 40mph limit to 20mph, while there are still roads in the area with a 30 limit?
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by jervi »

Initially I was going to suggest to make it safer for cycling. However for the Eastern half of the road between those two junction (B286 & B279) there are dedicated cycle tracks (50s style), and for the western half there is a shared space on the southern half (not useful for eastbound traffic thou). However it would be suitable for 30mph for the missing gaps on the cycleway. All the way to 20mph is very odd, maybe there has been a spike in accidents?
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Piatkow »

jervi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 16:27 Initially I was going to suggest to make it safer for cycling. However for the Eastern half of the road between those two junction (B286 & B279) there are dedicated cycle tracks (50s style), and for the western half there is a shared space on the southern half (not useful for eastbound traffic thou). However it would be suitable for 30mph for the missing gaps on the cycleway. All the way to 20mph is very odd, maybe there has been a spike in accidents?
Considering the number of places where I have seen a cycle track painted on the carriageway alongside a segregatred one I would suspect that it is simply a quick and dirty way to claim that cycling facilities have been "improved".
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

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Skipsy wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 16:11What justifies the halving of this 40mph limit to 20mph, while there are still roads in the area with a 30 limit?
Because…
STATEMENT OF REASONS

The reduction of the speed limit would help to improve road safety for all road users in the area.
https://www.merton.gov.uk/assets/Docume ... %20SOR.pdf

There were only three exceptions planned for Merton's borough-wide 20mph plan:

the A219 Parkside from the A3 to B281 Cannizaro Road,
the A236 Croydon Road (which had already been reduced from 40mph to 30mph), and
the A298 Bushey Road between the A3 and B286 Martin Way, which would reduce to 30mph where it was not already.

Regardless of whether such a reduction makes sense, which is difficult for me to see unless it has a particularly bad safety record, a better question is why they have still made an exception for the short section between B279 Grand Drive and West Wimbledon Primary School (or the railway bridge), which now seems extremely arbitrary.

When I was there last weekend there were no signs indicating the speed limit had changed, and no one was paying any attention to the new signs. And as a vulnerable user in the area wanting Martin Way, I certainly would not have been safer doing 20 mph with traffic going twice my speed on my inside.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by SteveA30 »

It's just part of a general trend towards 20 limits. Plenty more to come I'm sure. As I recall, Portsmouth started it and as no-one there has tried to stop it AFAIK, so they will proliferate. Same with CAZ. Bath, Bristol, Birmingham so far.....
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by someone »

I cannot see any council decision to authorize the 20 mph limit, but here are excerpts of what they originally approved for moving from 40 mph to 30 mph:
BACKGROUND

Currently Bushey Road is subject to 40mph speed limit. Given its nature it is considered that 20mph may be unsuitable for this road but 40mph speed limit is considered to be high. Consequently, it is considered that 30mph would be more reasonable.

PROPOSED MEASURES

It is proposed to reduce the speed limit from 40mph to 30mph on Bushey Road (the A298), between its junction with Martin Way and its junction with Grand Drive (as shown on plan No. Z73-27-01 attached in Appendix 1). This is believed to be more of a reasonable speed limit than either 40mph or 20mph.

ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS

Do Nothing. This, however, would be contrary to the Council’s aspirations of a lower speed limit throughout the borough thereby bringing about a change in driver behaviour.

Objection

Officer's Comment

The objective is to change behaviour – that is to say to encourage drivers to travel at a consistent lower speed not just along specific roads but throughout the borough and from borough to borough. It is acknowledged that reducing the speed limit along this section of Bushey road to 20mph would be unreasonable but it is considered unnecessary to have a 40mph speed limit in the borough.

The Council must be mindful of all road users and this does include motorists. A slower speed limit allows more time for drivers to react and in case of an accident it is likely to be less severe in terms of personal injury as well as damage only.

It is, therefore, considered that a 30mph speed would benefit a higher level of road users. Also as it is our objective to ensure a change in behaviour and attitude toward speed, it is unlikely to be achieved by the constant change to and from 30mph and 40mph or from 20mph to 40mph.
https://www.merton.gov.uk/Documents/Sta ... 030MPH.pdf

So I guess the reason for moving to 20 mph is a new policy of unreasonableness?!

The A296 is a part of my route to the A3 for getting out of London anywhere south westerly, and even sometimes useful for the M4 to avoid going though Fulham or Earl's Court, so it is rather annoying. Especially as the traffic on Bushey Road was always the worst bit, and it will only be worse with reduced capacity once people start following the limit.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Skipsy »

someone wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 17:46
Skipsy wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 16:11What justifies the halving of this 40mph limit to 20mph, while there are still roads in the area with a 30 limit?
Because…
STATEMENT OF REASONS

The reduction of the speed limit would help to improve road safety for all road users in the area.
https://www.merton.gov.uk/assets/Docume ... %20SOR.pdf

There were only three exceptions planned for Merton's borough-wide 20mph plan:

the A219 Parkside from the A3 to B281 Cannizaro Road,
the A236 Croydon Road (which had already been reduced from 40mph to 30mph), and
the A298 Bushey Road between the A3 and B286 Martin Way, which would reduce to 30mph where it was not already.

Regardless of whether such a reduction makes sense, which is difficult for me to see unless it has a particularly bad safety record, a better question is why they have still made an exception for the short section between B279 Grand Drive and West Wimbledon Primary School (or the railway bridge), which now seems extremely arbitrary.

When I was there last weekend there were no signs indicating the speed limit had changed, and no one was paying any attention to the new signs. And as a vulnerable user in the area wanting Martin Way, I certainly would not have been safer doing 20 mph with traffic going twice my speed on my inside.
Yeah the weirdest part is definitely the fact that it is now 30 on that section, which is more dangerous than the new 20 section, considering the merge of 2 lanes going over Carter's Bridge both ways.

There is so much poor signage in the area, for example:
. Forgetting to remove 40 limit signs when you're turning onto Bushey Road (from the unnamed road with Pets at Home and Next on it): https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4050867 ... 384!8i8192
. A strange pseudo Clearway (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4065086 ... 312!8i6656) that only applies westbound until the start of the Red Route Clearway at the next traffic lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4039087 ... 384!8i8192
. The lack of a right filter when turning right from Grand Drive onto Bushey Road, even though opposing traffic clearly stops: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4073566 ... 384!8i8192
. The fact that coming off the A3 directly onto the A298 you don't have any end of Red Route Clearway sign.

Parkside has been reduced to 20mph which is ridiculous considering how wide and void of pedestrian traffic there is.
So the A24 (Epsom Road, London Road, Morden Road and Merantun Way), A297 (St Helier Avenue) will also be running at 20 in the future, and those weren't even in their excepted roads to begin with, ridiculous.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

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Skipsy wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 17:58Yeah the weirdest part is definitely the fact that it is now 30 on that section, which is more dangerous than the new 20 section, considering the merge of 2 lanes going over Carter's Bridge both ways.
Absolutely. And the previous reduction to 30 mph there seemed a good idea to me for that reason.

The unnamed road that joins it is also Bushey Road, that is the address for the properties on that section and the traffic orders clarify it as being the slip road section from the southbound A3.

And the A24 and A297 were not exempted from the borough-wide plan because they are not borough roads! Although it would not be surprising were TfL to reduce the limits anyway. The A297 being 40 mph does seem a bit of an anomaly. As much as it is a dual carriageway with pavements and properties set back, it is lined by on-street parking.

I have never understood why Merantun Way is not a 40mph road between the roundabout and Morden Road. Whilst there is a junction, there are no pavements and pedestrians are prohibited. And the road is wide enough they could make it safer for cyclists.

A strange by-product of these reductions in speed limits is how it affects driving training and testing, which will surely lower standards.

I did my motorcycle driving test at the D.V.S.A. centre just off A236 Croydon Road, and I am sure that it (if it has not also changed) and the A23 Purley Way / Thornton Road are the only roads I rode on that are not now 20 mph. And part of the test is supposed to be about showing confidence in control of the bike and being able to ride at road speeds.

People argue against the fact you can drive on a motorway never having been trained on one. But having done my C.B.T. in west London and my training in south London I have never even been instructed on a 40 mph road! With the size of London it is getting more difficult to be able to get out to faster roads in the time of a lesson that people will be passing tests with no experience.

Obviously you cannot set speed limits on the basis of what best helps learner drivers, but it does affect standards and safety.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by A303Chris »

SteveA30 wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 20:07 It's just part of a general trend towards 20 limits. Plenty more to come I'm sure. As I recall, Portsmouth started it and as no-one there has tried to stop it AFAIK, so they will proliferate. Same with CAZ. Bath, Bristol, Birmingham so far.....
Hampshire stop implementing the after this study in the county , especially as the police very rarely enforce them.

Here is the committee report which says the existing ones will stay but no new ones will be added.

Unfortunately London is driven by the TfL, who are not the most sensible. As a cyclist myself, 20 mph limits are a pain as it takes longer for a car to pass you and I actually feel more unsafe then on a 30mph of 40mph.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Skipsy »

someone wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 19:58
Skipsy wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 17:58Yeah the weirdest part is definitely the fact that it is now 30 on that section, which is more dangerous than the new 20 section, considering the merge of 2 lanes going over Carter's Bridge both ways.
Absolutely. And the previous reduction to 30 mph there seemed a good idea to me for that reason.

The unnamed road that joins it is also Bushey Road, that is the address for the properties on that section and the traffic orders clarify it as being the slip road section from the southbound A3.

And the A24 and A297 were not exempted from the borough-wide plan because they are not borough roads! Although it would not be surprising were TfL to reduce the limits anyway. The A297 being 40 mph does seem a bit of an anomaly. As much as it is a dual carriageway with pavements and properties set back, it is lined by on-street parking.

I have never understood why Merantun Way is not a 40mph road between the roundabout and Morden Road. Whilst there is a junction, there are no pavements and pedestrians are prohibited. And the road is wide enough they could make it safer for cyclists.

A strange by-product of these reductions in speed limits is how it affects driving training and testing, which will surely lower standards.

I did my motorcycle driving test at the D.V.S.A. centre just off A236 Croydon Road, and I am sure that it (if it has not also changed) and the A23 Purley Way / Thornton Road are the only roads I rode on that are not now 20 mph. And part of the test is supposed to be about showing confidence in control of the bike and being able to ride at road speeds.

People argue against the fact you can drive on a motorway never having been trained on one. But having done my C.B.T. in west London and my training in south London I have never even been instructed on a 40 mph road! With the size of London it is getting more difficult to be able to get out to faster roads in the time of a lesson that people will be passing tests with no experience.

Obviously you cannot set speed limits on the basis of what best helps learner drivers, but it does affect standards and safety.
Ah makes sense, wasn't sure which roads aren't borough ones, but wow I can't imagine even Croydon Road A236 being reduced to 20, which seems inevitable since they already ignored their planned exemption for Parkside.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Skipsy »

A303Chris wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 13:40
SteveA30 wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 20:07 It's just part of a general trend towards 20 limits. Plenty more to come I'm sure. As I recall, Portsmouth started it and as no-one there has tried to stop it AFAIK, so they will proliferate. Same with CAZ. Bath, Bristol, Birmingham so far.....
Hampshire stop implementing the after this study in the county , especially as the police very rarely enforce them.

Here is the committee report which says the existing ones will stay but no new ones will be added.

Unfortunately London is driven by the TfL, who are not the most sensible. As a cyclist myself, 20 mph limits are a pain as it takes longer for a car to pass you and I actually feel more unsafe then on a 30mph of 40mph.
I'm all for cycling infrastructure as well, it just seems like they want to inconvenience drivers at the same time.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Having a cuppa »

I'm not sure why, but Merton has been making rather irrational decisions regarding speed limits lately. On most of the A216, a road which meets with the A23 in Streatham, the speed limit has been reduced from 30 miles per hour to 20 despite having average lane width, good distance between opposing lanes, and designated parking spots. If anything, it would have been smarter to redo the pedestrian crossings instead of lowering the limit on most of the road by ten mph.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by fras »

To be honest, the whole world seems to be going barking mad at the moment, not just Merton !
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by ajuk »

Looks like it was still 40 in 2020, If this has gone straight from 40 to 20 with no changes to the engineering standard of the road then that's the council being reckless. This is what happens when councils can set speed limits how they like, often ignoring DfT guidelines that allow them to set the limit as much as 4mph below the mean average speed of traffic. That to me is already bats, but to go ahead and ignore even that and set the speed limit based on advice from Maude Flanders.

What a lot of people fail to realise is that the 40 limit was introduced to increase safety, it mainly served to give pedestrians a more realistic expectation of actual traffic speeds on higher standard roads, their introduction did very little to increase actual traffic speeds if they did at all.

I've seen this in Cardiff as well, in Bristol there's non-uniformity, and every single higher standard road had a non-compliance rate of over 90% when the local paper took a look, but at least most higher standard main roads remain 30 throughout except for shopping streets.
In Cardiff they have been putting 20 limits on almost all roads with complete impunity and reducing all 40 limits to 30 as well regardless of standard.

It would be funny if I didn't think it was so insidious, this is how you bring speed limits into contempt not get people to pay more attention to them.
Last edited by ajuk on Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by SteveA30 »

It's good that Hants has taken a realistic approach to 20 limits, rather than an ideological one. I imagine Labour Councils are more likely than Tory to impose them on ideological criteria. Southampton recently went back to Tory control and immediately abolished some bus lanes. Party politics is the driving force on such things, rather than pragmatic criteria. No change there then.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

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SteveA30 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 07:15Party politics is the driving force on such things, rather than pragmatic criteria. No change there then.
Madness in both directions, really - you would hope that road safety was something that could be driven by empirical evidence, with approaches that were proven to reduce injuries and deaths becoming best practice and adopted nationwide, and approaches that don't achieve the same results being discarded. But it remains a political issue, driven very much by the party policy and (often) the individual beliefs of the person who ends up in charge of transport at a particular council, regardless of how outdated or wayward their beliefs or how much they might be just pursuing their own pet agenda. Makes no sense to me. But that's politics as a whole I suppose.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by A303Chris »

SteveA30 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 07:15 It's good that Hants has taken a realistic approach to 20 limits, rather than an ideological one. I imagine Labour Councils are more likely than Tory to impose them on ideological criteria. Southampton recently went back to Tory control and immediately abolished some bus lanes. Party politics is the driving force on such things, rather than pragmatic criteria. No change there then.
You've hit the nail on the head and the reason I'm glad I returned to the private sector 7 years ago. At my last authority, Reading, the council was run by Labour and the greens and now the town is covered in 20mphs, some so blatantly ignored they have retrofitted traffic calming which is in fact horrendous. I have asked for the safety audit for the Redlands ward under an FoI, but to date no luck. It definitely does not comply with the Traffic Signs Manual.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by Chris Bertram »

I know they no longer have to authorise speed limit changes, but do the DTp not have reserve powers to "call in" unreasonable changes in limit? Other government departments seem to "call in" e.g. planning decisions for review, why not mass speed limit orders?

I'd actually like to see a "Chief Constable's veto" available, to be wielded against stupid limit changes that the police see no benefit from and would not intend to enforce. As the people responsible for enforcing good behaviour on the roads, their opinion ought to be taken seriously, but one hears time and time again that it is ignored - time to give them some teeth.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

Post by ajuk »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:39 I know they no longer have to authorise speed limit changes, but do the DTp not have reserve powers to "call in" unreasonable changes in limit? Other government departments seem to "call in" e.g. planning decisions for review, why not mass speed limit orders?

I'd actually like to see a "Chief Constable's veto" available, to be wielded against stupid limit changes that the police see no benefit from and would not intend to enforce. As the people responsible for enforcing good behaviour on the roads, their opinion ought to be taken seriously, but one hears time and time again that it is ignored - time to give them some teeth.
I did a FOI request to the DfT asking if they have any ability to punish a council or an individuals at a council if, as product of ignoring their guidelines in setting speed limits, it lead to an increase in accident or deaths?
The short answer was no, the council can answer to "the electorate" which to me is like saying no one can be held responsible.

There are multiple issues that people vote on and under FPtP voting you could change your vote but still have little say on who you elect.
100s or thousands of people could vote differently to remove some councillors but even then do we know for sure why that person lost there seat.
I wrote to my MP on the issue stating that my concern is that councils don't have to give data in consultations as to what drop they expect to see in actual traffic speeds and levels of compliance and people are being mislead into believing a 10mph drop in speed limit = 10mph drop in speeds, also that councils have no one to answer too if they inadvertently make a road more dangerous by setting speed limits wrongly, either too low or too high, it was forwarded to someone at the DfT and I got a similar response.
Councils answer to ThE eLeCtOrAtE.
Basically, they explained back to me in different wording what I wrote to them saying I thought the problem was, it was pure bulverism.
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Re: Bushey Road A298 20mph limit?!

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ajuk wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 13:02
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:39 I know they no longer have to authorise speed limit changes, but do the DTp not have reserve powers to "call in" unreasonable changes in limit? Other government departments seem to "call in" e.g. planning decisions for review, why not mass speed limit orders?

I'd actually like to see a "Chief Constable's veto" available, to be wielded against stupid limit changes that the police see no benefit from and would not intend to enforce. As the people responsible for enforcing good behaviour on the roads, their opinion ought to be taken seriously, but one hears time and time again that it is ignored - time to give them some teeth.
I did a FOI request to the DfT asking if they have any ability to punish a council or an individuals at a council if, as product of ignoring their guidelines in setting speed limits, it lead to an increase in accident or deaths?
The short answer was no, the council can answer to "the electorate" which to me is like saying no one can be held responsible.

There are multiple issues that people vote on and under FPtP voting you could change your vote but still have little say on who you elect.
100s or thousands of people could vote differently to remove some councillors but even then do we know for sure why that person lost there seat.
I wrote to my MP on the issue stating that my concern is that councils don't have to give data in consultations as to what drop they expect to see in actual traffic speeds and levels of compliance and people are being mislead into believing a 10mph drop in speed limit = 10mph drop in speeds, also that councils have no one to answer too if they inadvertently make a road more dangerous by setting speed limits wrongly, either too low or too high, it was forwarded to someone at the DfT and I got a similar response.
Councils answer to ThE eLeCtOrAtE.
Basically, they explained back to me in different wording what I wrote to them saying I thought the problem was, it was pure bulverism.
Circular 1/93 came about because local councils were complaining their electorates wanted speed limits lowering and they couldn't do it. Contrary to what the same six white men on SABRE say, the vast majority of British people do not want fast roads outside their front door.

You either want more local decision making or you don't. You can't have it both ways where central government is told to bugger off when they're doing stuff you dislike and told to come back when the council is doing stuff you don't like instead.

That said this road is clearly a 30 to any engineer with sense, not a 20.
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